Kate's Last Half Hour

[Lipsky]

[QUOTE=Leanne;n720467]

I don't see how or why you included Liz Stride in the equation Leanne,[//QUOTE]
DJA thinks that a Eddowes and Stride planned to blackmail the Ripper. The offer of a reward for INFORMATION appeared in the Morning Adveritiser on the 21st of September, (while Kate and John were away hopping).

As Dave already mentioned, by Sept. 27 they were back, given not only sufficient time to pick up on the news for the reward, but in addition, speeding up their scheme because of that recently-apprehended development. The last 48 hours provide enough, if fragmented, information to substantiate that. The last half hour is pure proof that Kate's movements were towards a pre-designated course of action, and by no means random, since she locates herself by her own free will remarkably close to Jewish site #2.

My suggested empirical scheme is that the notion of blackmail began long before the reward was offered anyway, hence the previous attacks, "canonical" or otherwise.

1. If Kate's trajectory post-release was random, the sheer force of statistics would place her anywhere in Whitechapel other than extremely correlated geographical vicinity to Jewish site #2. The short time between release and murder proves that the hit on her was pre-conceived and she was probably waited for at meeting point, or made sure she was there, regardless of time of release. It's a tight scheme, but less incredible than the "randomness" of her placing herself at Jewish Site #2 given the bound probability that another murder would have taken place on the same night at the "other" Jewish site (again, point out that these two sites provide the two competing classes of each capitalist society/nation, in our case the Jewish one).

2. Why probability theory is a systemic tool to analyse this: The bound probability that a second murder, within extremely short time, next to a Jewish site, after the carrying out of another murder at the first Jewish site, is extremely low, on sheer force of statistics.

A low probability demonstrates a highly correlated set of two acts, and deems the probability of these events being random very unlikely.

The bound probability that an anti-semite graffiti would appear on one of the killer's possible escate routes, given the two previous probabilities, is even lower, rendering the event very highly correlated.

3. This series of very narrowly (in terms of time-scale) carried out actions leaves us with two options: a very fast spontaneous course of actions "on the spot" or a pre-designated operation. It is absurd to believe that three acts that would attempt to incriminate Jews and provide a new "scapegoat" much more dangerous and socially incendiary than earlier "Leather Apron/Pizer" is spontaneous as the killer makes headway between "random" locations and "random" hits, in a serial killer case. I am sorry, the logical fallacy here is infinite.

4. The fact that we are able to correlate Kate's "curious" trajectory post-release to her murder, and to "curious" happenings in the last 48 hours, followed by "curious" fallacies by John Kelly at the inquest, leaves really little room for speculation.

We could wrap it up as our man would have emphasized:

The denialists are not the men that will be blamed for nothing

[DJA]

And on the 27th they were back in London, purportedly seeking the reward.

By 2am Sunday 30th September both Eddowes and Stride were dead,having been murdered about an hour apart.

An hour earlier Eddowes' had given her jailer the real name of the last victim along with the address immediately behind Strides' current lodging house.
Stride was at 32 Flower and Dean,Eddowes at 55.
The first victim had lived at 56,her last address.

Apology for the repeat as it gets too sound a bit "fishy"

[Leanne]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;n720340]

I don't see how or why you included Liz Stride in the equation Leanne,[//QUOTE]
DJA thinks that a Eddowes and Stride planned to blackmail the Ripper. The offer of a reward for INFORMATION appeared in the Morning Adveritiser on the 21st of September, (while Kate and John were away hopping).

[DJA]

Can we just stick to Eddowes' last movements on this Eddowes thread, please? There are other threads that address the much bigger, and very different, topic of whether the victims knew each other.

Eddowes' last 30 minutes would make a very,very short thread as no one knows where she was.

Personally,reckon she was having a cup of tea with Jack at 6 Mitre Street.

She had no idea Stride was dead and was probably seeking her share of the blackmail money.

Your nose is out of joint because your long held position on these five women not knowing each other is being trashed by the facts.

You have a history of dragging threads out of context.

Kettle,pot.

[Sam Flynn]

Can we just stick to Eddowes' last movements on this Eddowes thread, please? There are other threads that address the much bigger, and very different, topic of whether the victims knew each other.

[jerryd]

All within 11 doors of each other on the same side of the street and if we go with the 10th November telegraph report you can drop Eddowes in at the shed .
Sharing the same tiny pubs ,the same shop etc .

Believing these women didn't know each other is as daft as it gets

If the papers are to be believed.


Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

[jerryd]

Kate was in Thrawl Street, visiting her ill sister Eliza Gold/Frost, 4 to 5 weeks before the inquest. Annie Phillips (Kates daughter) was in Thrawl Street asking Eliza Gold if she (Eliza) had seen her mother, a few days before Kates murder.

Annie stated at the inquest she was avoiding her mother for asking for money. Why was she out actively looking for her then?

[Leanne]

Well,I'm certainly not going to dispute logic like that.

You can't because I learnt it by reading her inquest!

[Lipsky]

Given all the dumb lies Kelly told,there is a good chance that Eddowes stole a pair of boots and hocked them without him.

That John Kelly was so full of BS it's bewildering.

Concerning an earlier "spooky significance" comment by Sam: dear Sam, serial killer cases have been cracked by "spooky" pattern recognition. On the other hand, failure to do so has been by ignoring or not comprehending the significance of such "minor" (??) leads and even more the significance that serial killers place on symbolism. It is impossible to comprehend the first hit (Stride) that is next to Jewish Site #1 by deeming the second murder as "unplanned -- a hasty decision because the first was interrupted" wheras its occurrence to Jewish site #2 renders the whole thing designated beforehand as "one" operation. Or was the "Graffiti" too another coincidence?

If the second hit is not random , in terms of location, the question remains if it was random in terms of the victim chosen.

1. Would our man wait for any random prostitute to sit by the second Jewish site?
2. Would our man lead a pre-chosen victim to this location to ensure the operation includes murder on both jewish sites? (with convenient "sightings" by Jews in both cases, followed by an antisemite graffiti?)

If we choose to accept 2, then the question becomes:
1. Was the chosen victim a random prostitute at some pub?
2. Was it a deliberately chosen individual?

Kate's geo-specifics, the physical interaction with the other victim(s) and her twice given alias-es (I'll comply) suggest that it was deliberate, and her last half hour correlates to that. That is why the aliases discussion is part and parcel of this thread, methinks.

[DJA]

Originally posted by DJA View Post

That tallies with Nichols moving from opposite Kate's sister in Thrawl Street to next door to Kate at Flower and Dean on 24th August before she left for Kent.

Nicholls was removed from the lodging house on Thrawl Street for not being able to pay the 4d cost of a bed. "I'LL SOON GET MY DOSS MONEY. SEE WHAT A JOLLY BONNET I'VE GOT NOW?". She moved to 'The White House' on Flower and Dean Street because it allowed a man and a woman to share the same bed.

Well,I'm certainly not going to dispute logic like that.

[DJA]

John Kelly firstly testified that he thinks she pawned his boots on Saturday morning. The coroner must have known that the ticket said it was Friday so asked:
'Mr. Crawford: Is it not the fact that the pawning took place on the Friday night? - I do not know. It was either Friday night or Saturday morning. I am all muddled up. (The tickets were produced, and were dated the 28th, Friday.)
[Crawford ?] She pawned the boots, did she not? - Yes; and I stood at the door in my bare feet.
[Crawford ?] Seeing the date on the tickets, cannot you recollect when the pawning took place? - I cannot say, I am so muddled up. It was either Friday or Saturday.
The Coroner: Had you been drinking when the pawning took place? - Yes.'

This is right at the end of his testimony,

Given all the dumb lies Kelly told,there is a good chance that Eddowes stole a pair of boots and hocked them without him.

[Leanne]

Originally posted by DJA View Post

That tallies with Nichols moving from opposite Kate's sister in Thrawl Street to next door to Kate at Flower and Dean on 24th August before she left for Kent.

Nicholls was removed from the lodging house on Thrawl Street for not being able to pay the 4d cost of a bed. "I'LL SOON GET MY DOSS MONEY. SEE WHAT A JOLLY BONNET I'VE GOT NOW?". She moved to 'The White House' on Flower and Dean Street because it allowed a man and a woman to share the same bed.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think its possible she was killed by someone who was involved in the Post Office robbery that same night, if for no other reason than we have proof that criminals were in that immediate area carrying out a crime at the very same time as her murder.

There's no evidence that the robbery took place on the same night, let alone "at the very same time", as her murder. It could have taken place at any time over the weekend when the post office was closed, from Saturday lunchtime to Monday morning.

[DJA]

Should have read 4th October and 24th August,at the latest.

[DJA]

The returned three days before her murder, that's on the 27th. If they'd been away at least 35 days, that means they left on around the 22nd of August. Earlier if assume they'd been away for 6 weeks.

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Frederick Wilkinson at the inquest on 8th October said five or six weeks ago,so possibly as late as 28th August.

Inquest was mainly interested in recent events,particularly Saturday night's occupancy of 52 beds in total.