Kate's Last Half Hour

[Michael W Richards]

How often do desperately poor people with no significant connections to Ireland get embroiled in plots with Irish political agitators?

As I said before Sam, information like knowing of a local criminal capable of violence was something many Unfortunates had. That information is worth very little unless people are willing to buy it from you. Claiming a reward for providing information is one way, suggesting to that criminal you know that you will be quiet if rewarded for your silence is another. The Irish componenet stems from my belief that she would have met lawabiding and non-law abiding Irish people while she was with Conway. She might know a few people in various circles from that time. And oddly enough at that same moment in time, murders that resemble terrorist acts are happening, a plot to assassinate Lord Balfour was going on, a public hearing into allegations that self rule terrorists had affiliations with Parliamentary figures and complicity in murder plots was going on at that time, people involved in some of these crimes and plots were being paid,.. some in large amounts..., by this hearing for information they had on other plots and people, many of which have ties with the local self rule factions, and a senior investigator suggests in a memo the next year that perhaps a double agent and leading Irish self rule figure might be the culprit they called Jack.

There is no more favourable time for someone to gain monetarily for possessing information about local criminals, particularly Irish ones, even an impoverished street woman can have information like that. Add to that that on that same weekend, just around the corner, a robbery was taking place, likely throughout Saturday night, proving empiracally that criminals were in the very vicinity she was killed at, at the very same time.

Its make sense to me Sam. It would address why she was where she was, and for another, why we have unsual facial wounds this time. What doesnt marry well is what happened to Kate and what happened to Annie. They do not seem to be similarlly focussed attacks, and I question why the motivation, the goal, and the reason the killer of Polly and Annie did what he did would not be the same with Kate. From Polly to Annie there is very lttle deviation in those regards. It seems both women were killed by a stranger so he could mutilate the female abdomen, and ultimately, take something internal from there.

[DJA]

If she had any worthwhile information, why wouldn't she go to one of the very few people who offered a reward at this time?
If Elizabeth Stride also had this incriminating information, how did the killer know the identities of the women who 'saw' him, to be able to silence them?

Ripperologists tend to assume Jack was stalking the women.
Turn that around. Incidentally there was a bunch of them

6 Dorset Street was a three storey house and stables.
5,6 and 7 Dorset were owned by E&W Bailey.
7 was leased to Barnett Price,grocer.
5 and 6 let as furnished rooms.
Thanks to Fiona Rule.

Jack was fair game for blackmail,being bisexual.
Due to the Labouchere Amendment of 1885,he was looking at 2 years hard labor and an enormous scandal.
Don't forget Mary Ann Kelly had worked at a gay house.

[Leanne]

I just found this on a Victorian London site:

For the majority of the working classes, pawning was simply a way of life. When in employment, they used their clothing, especially their Sunday best, as capital on which to raise cash. Clothing was often pledged on a Monday and redeemed on a Saturday after the breadwinner of the family had been paid. It was worn to chapel or church on a Sunday, and pledged again the next day. This was the reason that Saturdays and Mondays were the pawnbrokers' busiest days.'

so John's Pawned boots were only a loan for for much needed money. and they intended to buy them back.

https://visitvictorianengland.blogsp...victorian.html

A reason for Catherine not to go straight home?

[Leanne]

John Kelly admits he was drunk when Kate pawned the boots. If they came back from hop picking with little money, how did he pay for drinks?

[Leanne]

Here's a 1888 map that shows where Church Street Spitalfield was:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=35D2C14C4ECEA3F02B7DD39C4417ED6B6308CA6B&thid=OIP.-nXnZ4fD8kYFg1MdlfYwGQHaEn&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jacktherippermap.info%2Fimages%2Fjtrmap7a.jpg&exph=498&expw=800&q=map+church+street+spitalfields&selectedindex=23&qpvt=map+church+street+spitalfields&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=1

All the other contemporary maps show it with a different name. The Times newspaper of 1888 confirms it was Church Street.

[Leanne]

Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes all had Connections with Dorset Street.

CHAPMAN: lived at 30 Dorset Street in 1886 and frequently at Crossinghams Lodging House 35 Dorset Street in 1888. She intended to sleep there the night she died, telling the watchman of No35 "See that Jim keeps my doss for me."

STRIDE: Michael Kidney lived at 33 Dorset Street at the time of Elizabeth's murder.

EDDOWES: gave the name Jane Kelly of 6 Dorsett Street when she pawned the boots, so I'd say her and John Sometimes stayed there. I haven't been able to find what was at 6 Dorset Street, but one Website I read said this short Street had a lot of Lodging Houses and there was also furnished rooms that were used for immoral purposes.

I have to leave Mary JANE Kelly out of this because I suspect her lover, who lived on Dorset Street.

Can we guess at what information they may have had?

THE TIMES 2ND OCTOBER 1888 says:
'The only clue...…….the articles had been pawned for 1s and 6d respectively with Mr. Jones of Church Street Spitalfields who, however, cannot identify the woman as having made the pledges.'

Church Street Spitalfields was the first one after Dorset Street on the opposite side. So the couple had been there on Friday.

[Leanne]

If she had any worthwhile information, why wouldn't she go to one of the very few people who offered a reward at this time?
If Elizabeth Stride also had this incriminating information, how did the killer know the identities of the women who 'saw' him, to be able to silence them?

[Sam Flynn]

How often do you think these desperately poor people get a chance to get money for just telling someone else something? She might have seen this opportunity as her answer to her financial woes.

How often do desperately poor people with no significant connections to Ireland get embroiled in plots with Irish political agitators?

[Leanne]

Reckon Eddowes and Stride were both in it together at the urging of Mary Ann Kelly.

Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes all had Connections with Dorset Street.

CHAPMAN: lived at 30 Dorset Street in 1886 and frequently at Crossinghams Lodging House 35 Dorset Street in 1888. She intended to sleep there the night she died, telling the watchman of No35 "See that Jim keeps my doss for me."

STRIDE: Michael Kidney lived at 33 Dorset Street at the time of Elizabeth's murder.

EDDOWES: gave the name Jane Kelly of 6 Dorsett Street when she pawned the boots, so I'd say her and John Sometimes stayed there. I haven't been able to find what was at 6 Dorset Street, but one Website I read said this short Street had a lot of Lodging Houses and there was also furnished rooms that were used for immoral purposes.

I have to leave Mary JANE Kelly out of this because I suspect her lover, who lived on Dorset Street.

Can we guess at what information they may have had?

[Leanne]

If they pre-arranged a meeting when did they do it? Before they went hop-picking?

[Leanne]

They lived "as partners" Leanne, and the fact that he doesn't wonder where she was may well be the indicator that he already knew what she was up to, and approved of it. they may have cooked up this "blackmail" idea together for all we know. The blackmail idea is far from frivolous considering we do have in evidence she was intent on getting money for information she felt she had. So, why not maximize your potential? How often do you think these desperately poor people get a chance to get money for just telling someone else something? She might have seen this opportunity as her answer to her financial woes.

OK I can believe that John may have known where she was going after they parted, knew that she had other ways of earning money and let her do it.

The pins and needles, ball of hemp, 12 rags and thimble she had, were in her pockets when she left?
Were her intensions to sit in a gutter sewing handkerchiefs until a potential customer passed by?
A table knife and a teaspoon weren't enough to defend herself with.

I can't believe that John sent her to blackmail though.

[DJA]

But it was Catherine that you believe was the blackmailer not John! He could have said "She told me once...……….. Perhaps she went there...……….but she told me she was going...…"

Reckon Eddowes and Stride were both in it together at the urging of Mary Ann Kelly.

Broad shoulder man was a Royal Engineer named Frank Carter, hired as muscle in case things went wrong.

Eddowes returning for a reward strongly suggests she knew Nichols or Chapman,probably both.

Nichols is obvious.

One person stands out as being linked to all.

[Michael W Richards]

But it was Catherine that you believe was the blackmailer not John! He could have said "She told me once...……….. Perhaps she went there...……….but she told me she was going...…"

They lived "as partners" Leanne, and the fact that he doesn't wonder where she was may well be the indicator that he already knew what she was up to, and approved of it. they may have cooked up this "blackmail" idea together for all we know. The blackmail idea is far from frivolous considering we do have in evidence she was intent on getting money for information she felt she had. So, why not maximize your potential? How often do you think these desperately poor people get a chance to get money for just telling someone else something? She might have seen this opportunity as her answer to her financial woes.

[Leanne]

Because blackmail was more lucrative.

Because blackmail was and still is a crime.

But it was Catherine that you believe was the blackmailer not John! He could have said "She told me once...……….. Perhaps she went there...……….but she told me she was going...…"

[Michael W Richards]

Statements like this:

I think the reason he didn't ask about her, seek her out, ask friends if they had seen her, check with where he knew she was in jail Saturday night, is because he already knew she was dead Tuesday

before

reading any paper. That just confirmed it I believe.

How did he know she was dead?

He read the notice about Kate on Tuesday morning, but the reality is that that news was all over town by noon Monday, so he would have already known that A) he still hasn't heard from Kate though she would have been released Sun night when she sobered up enough, B) the victims general description had already been printed, C) if they were as close as people claimed, including John himself, then he would known whether Kate ever had any business or contacts in the City, and more speculative, if he knew that whatever Kate was doing Sat night involved some career criminals then he would have some trepidation not having heard from her by late Sunday.

John, by his own admission, stayed cool for 72 hours after he last saw Kate, though he also claimed they lived as "man and wife". There is no indication that he ever asked about her from anyone or sought her out in any way. Im surprised everyone doesn't see this as a red flag.