Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Varqm]

I agree...I believe he remained in control of the situation the whole time. From the incapacitating, likely strangulation, to the dispatching, the cutting of the throat deep enough so they bled out quick, to the ripping and knowing what he wanted from the victims; kidney, uterus etc.

With Kate as an example, the intestines were placed where they were found, not by design but on purpose so he could get to what he was after...her kidney.

All the time he was conscious of his surroundings and acted quickly and as I mentioned before slipped into the shadows and popped out somewhere else.

Jim

Yeah he had some medical skills,enough to do the job, and knew the area.I remember a poster,Prosector,a surgeon-
taken with a grain of salt because he was not a criminal,said it was the cutting of the throat which impressed
him most rather than the opening of the abdomen and getting the organs.
I believe he used (from Shadwell/Ratcliff/Limehouse) Commercial Road-Commercial Street to the endpoint
Spitalfields Market.The streets Berner St.,George Yard/Osborne St.,Castle Alley,Dorset St., and Hanbury St.
(last) immediately 1-2 blocks left or right along the way.

[DJA]

Yes, that's true, thanks for pointing that out. We're getting a bit off track lately. Probably best, if people wish to continue the various detours we've taken, to start new threads on those and to get this one back to the topic. Otherwise, a lot of the interesting stuff we cover here will not get found, defeating the purpose of having the conversations in the first place.

- Jeff

It was you who questioned why Jack the Ripper was being blackmailed!

When answered, it was you who wanted to pursue the matter.

[DJA]

I remember a poster,Prosector,a surgeon-
taken with a grain of salt because he was not a criminal,said it was the cutting of the throat which impressed
him most rather than the opening of the abdomen and getting the organs.

Absolute garbage.

People need to do a bit of reading.

[JeffHamm]

It was you who questioned why Jack the Ripper was being blackmailed!

When answered, it was you who wanted to pursue the matter.

Sure, I have no problem with being the one to take the responsibility for starting down a diversion. Happens all the time, and it's how conversations tend to go, but as it's been pointed out, I figure that's a good sign that it's time to wrap up here and, if people want, continue in threads dedicated to those spin - off topics.

- Jeff

[Varqm]

Absolute garbage.

People need to do a bit of reading.

Ha.He was a surgeon.Can't surgeons form opinions, he was not a criminal and not done it in his life.What is not even remotely believable is blackmail.There is no signs of it from the victims for one.

[Aelric]

John Saul was a professional in house homosexual prostitute giving evidence in the Cleveland Street scandal.
He was describing what he did for a living.
Probably be worth your time reading the full transcript,you might just learn something!

I think it at most means "people who live/work in gay houses" rather than "homosexuals".

[Michael W Richards]

Ok....back from the Gay 1880's to present day thread..................is it possible that if Lawende actually saw Kate that the killer would be gone if Harvey looked into the square around 1:43? My vote is no. So...would he have had enough time from 1:35.... to get Kate into the square, do all he did, and be gone by 1:43? I say no. So...I think a real question is what time did he go into the square with Kate? If its before 12:35, and Lawende is wrong about who he saw, then I can see the timing and egress working out. If not, I cant.

[Juniper4576]

Ok....back from the Gay 1880's to present day thread..................is it possible that if Lawende actually saw Kate that the killer would be gone if Harvey looked into the square around 1:43? My vote is no. So...would he have had enough time from 1:35.... to get Kate into the square, do all he did, and be gone by 1:43? I say no. So...I think a real question is what time did he go into the square with Kate? If its before 12:35, and Lawende is wrong about who he saw, then I can see the timing and egress working out. If not, I cant.

OK suppose it wasn't Kate and Jack who Lawende saw and Jack and Kate entered from Mitre St and this with PC Harvey not physically looking into the square.

This would take Lawende out of the picture and only PC Watkins' timings...surely this will give Jack more time.

Does anyone know roughly where Watkins was on his beat when Harvey arrived at Church Passage, I believe Harvey's footsteps scared Jack off back in the direction of Mitre Street and he either turned left or right...or even into the yard to the left of Kates head as DJA suggests.

Jim

[Michael W Richards]

OK suppose it wasn't Kate and Jack who Lawende saw and Jack and Kate entered from Mitre St and this with PC Harvey not physically looking into the square.

This would take Lawende out of the picture and only PC Watkins' timings...surely this will give Jack more time.

Does anyone know roughly where Watkins was on his beat when Harvey arrived at Church Passage, I believe Harvey's footsteps scared Jack off back in the direction of Mitre Street and he either turned left or right...or even into the yard to the left of Kates head as DJA suggests.

Jim

Watkins was through at around 1:20 and back through again around 1:43-:44. Harvey said he looked in around 1:43...so Watkins may have been on his way in at the time. He was working left hand beats that night, (I believe), which means he entered the square then turned left and walked the perimeter and then back out.

[Juniper4576]

Watkins was through at around 1:20 and back through again around 1:43-:44. Harvey said he looked in around 1:43...so Watkins may have been on his way in at the time. He was working left hand beats that night, (I believe), which means he entered the square then turned left and walked the perimeter and then back out.

Sorry, another what if...what if Jack met Kate in Aldgate end of Mitre St, waited for Watkinsto come out and turnright at Aldgate, knowing they would get maximum time in the square?

Or, as in DJAs theory, came in the front of 6 Mitre St, out the back into square, with the getaway being the reverse.

[Michael W Richards]

Sorry, another what if...what if Jack met Kate in Aldgate end of Mitre St, waited for Watkinsto come out and turnright at Aldgate, knowing they would get maximum time in the square?

Or, as in DJAs theory, came in the front of 6 Mitre St, out the back into square, with the getaway being the reverse.

I dont mind that suggestion, if of course the other factor is suitable...ie, the Lawende sighting mistake . You know at the time of this murder officials actually wondered aloud if Kate was killed elsewhere and then dumped there...the only Ripper case where this idea came up I believe.

[Juniper4576]

I dont mind that suggestion, if of course the other factor is suitable...ie, the Lawende sighting mistake . You know at the time of this murder officials actually wondered aloud if Kate was killed elsewhere and then dumped there...the only Ripper case where this idea came up I believe.

That thought is with the sighting by Lawende was not the two.

I read about Kate possibly being killed elsewhere dumped there; if this is the case surely the killing was elsewhere and the throat cutting and mutilation being done in the square, could it be that she was killed in the yard to her left and brought out and Jacks time of choice?

I dont disagree with the killing elsewhere theory, but, how was she brought into the square, quietly and without causing suspicion?

I also read that nobody heard a thing, is this including yhe beat of Watkins? Could it be he didn't go into the square at all; after all he didn't chat with the night watchman that time because he was busy elsewhere in the warehouse

[JeffHamm]

Ok....back from the Gay 1880's to present day thread..................is it possible that if Lawende actually saw Kate that the killer would be gone if Harvey looked into the square around 1:43? My vote is no. So...would he have had enough time from 1:35.... to get Kate into the square, do all he did, and be gone by 1:43? I say no. So...I think a real question is what time did he go into the square with Kate? If its before 12:35, and Lawende is wrong about who he saw, then I can see the timing and egress working out. If not, I cant.

Hi Michael,

Lawende testified that they got up to leave the club at 1:30 (by his watch), and then estimated they waited 5 minutes before heading off. That's the source for the idea that the Church Passage Couple were last seen at 1:35. However, Leve, who was with Lawende, estimated they waited between 3 and 4 minutes, so the last sighting of the CPC is somewhere between 1:33 and 1:35.

The usual time given to PC Harvey patrolling church Passage is 1:41 or 1:42. So the time window is somewhere between 1:33 - 1:42 at most, and 1:35 to 1:41 at the narrowest. If we go with all the assumptions that lead to the narrowest time window, that's 6 minutes unaccounted for. The distance from Church Passage to the crime scene would only take about 35 seconds to traverse at an average walking pace, leaving roughly 5 minutes 25 seconds for the crime. Estimates by the doctors of the day ranged from 3 to 5 (possibly longer than 5), though there are some indications a doctor of the day was able to remove the uterus and kidney in 3.5 minutes, and Trevor reports a modern surgeon was able to do it in 4 minutes. (Obviously, the doctors are not serial killers, or under fear of being hanged if they get caught, but they are trained in human anatomy, would have better lighting, etc - how these differences influence things are unknown, but one set would suggest JtR would be faster while the other set favours the doctors; my tendency is to see these as minimizing the differences, but again, that's just my opinion of how we should treat the unknown in this case).

Anyway, under the most restrictive time constraints (1:35-1:41) there is still more unaccounted time than it appears JtR would require. That time window only gets larger if we select other values from the testimony, making it easier for JtR to complete his actions.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

OK suppose it wasn't Kate and Jack who Lawende saw and Jack and Kate entered from Mitre St and this with PC Harvey not physically looking into the square.

This would take Lawende out of the picture and only PC Watkins' timings...surely this will give Jack more time.

Does anyone know roughly where Watkins was on his beat when Harvey arrived at Church Passage, I believe Harvey's footsteps scared Jack off back in the direction of Mitre Street and he either turned left or right...or even into the yard to the left of Kates head as DJA suggests.

Jim

Hi Juniper4576,

While it's a bit of a mess, the very first post of this thread shows a map where I roughly estimated the positions of PC Watkins and PC Harvey on their beats minute by minute (basically, I mapped out the route, and knowing it took PC Watkins 14 minutes to complete his round between 1:30 and 1:44, I just worked out his walking speed and estimated where he would be; similar with PC Harvey as we know he was by the Post Office at 1:28, and know roughly where he was when he heard Morris's whistle at 1:44 ish, so I could do something similar.)

A few pages back I think I have some easier to read maps showing where PC Watkins was at 1:41 - 1:42, and he would not be in position to see JtR leave Mitre Square if he fled out into Mitre Street. And, if JtR fled northward, PC Watkins would never be in a position to see him before finding the body.

- Jeff

[jerryd]

Sorry, another what if...what if Jack met Kate in Aldgate end of Mitre St, waited for Watkinsto come out and turnright at Aldgate, knowing they would get maximum time in the square?

Or, as in DJAs theory, came in the front of 6 Mitre St, out the back into square, with the getaway being the reverse.

Hi Juniper.

First off, the yard behind #6 belonged to #5, Mitre Street. There was a door in the back of #5 that led into the yard and gate. IIRC, #6 Mitre Street may have had a window that looked into the yard. Second, the gate was locked.