Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by DJA View Post
    So do Eddowes mortuary photos.
    The "chevrons" and the nose cut make it obvious though.
    It is usually the second infection site of rheumatic fever after the throat.


    I read post #1468.What was the significance of the uterus (Chapman,Eddowes) though.
    Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
    M. Pacana

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Christian View Post

      Interesting debate-thread here’s a layout of the buildings in Mitre Square more importantly the first floor of 5 & 6 Mitre Street!!
      Thank you, Christian. I haven't seen that map before. Thanks for posting it.

      Apparently, in Heydemanns yard in 1888, was a lumber shed. Perhaps I'll start a thread that explains my thoughts on the possible significance of that.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Varqm View Post

        I read post #1468.What was the significance of the uterus (Chapman,Eddowes) though.
        I surmise Chapman had cancer of the uterus and bladder. Both are quite common.
        No doubt about Eddowes,as Jack had cut into her inguinal lymph nodes.
        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

          Thank you, Christian. I haven't seen that map before. Thanks for posting it.

          Apparently, in Heydemanns yard in 1888, was a lumber shed. Perhaps I'll start a thread that explains my thoughts on the possible significance of that.
          There in 1887,gone in 1939.

          Trust that does not place us at logger heads

          Click image for larger version

Name:	mitre-sq-jan1887.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	247.1 KB
ID:	752505 Click image for larger version

Name:	mitre-square-august-1939.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	281.5 KB
ID:	752506
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DJA View Post

            There in 1887,gone in 1939.

            Trust that does not place us at logger heads

            Click image for larger version  Name:	mitre-sq-jan1887.jpg Views:	0 Size:	247.1 KB ID:	752505 Click image for larger version  Name:	mitre-square-august-1939.jpg Views:	0 Size:	281.5 KB ID:	752506
            Never Dave, never.

            I'll borrow the same clip I used before. It could be misreported, but I am one to believe at least some of the news stories. This report seems to get the details correct in the other parts, so why not the lumber room?

            DAILY TELEGRAPH of
            Monday, October 1, 1888, page 5 -


            "The south-west corner is the one which is on the right hand when the square is entered from Mitre-street. On this side, separated from the open public space by a low wall and fence, there is a private yard, which is for the most part roofed in, and is used as a lumber room. This yard, which is some 40 ft. to 50 ft. in depth, and about 30 ft. wide, intervenes between a tall pile of warehouses, six stories high, occupied by Messrs. Horner and Sons, drug merchants, and a block of dwelling houses, with shops on the ground floor, the backs of which look upon the square, and the fronts face Mitre-street. The corner house only is occupied, the tenant being Mr. Taylor, a picture-frame maker, who was absent from home. Therefore the premises, together with those adjoining, were quite empty. In the fence above mentioned there is a door, which opens into the private yard, but it was locked. Near to the door is a coal shoot, and at a distance a couple of arched gratings, giving light to the cellars of the corner houses in Mitre-street. Above these gratings there are two windows, provided with green shutters, which were closed. The woman was lying on the pavement, with her head about eighteen inches from the door in the fence and the coal shoot, and with her legs toward the roadway."
            Last edited by jerryd; 03-06-2021, 03:16 AM.

            Comment


            • The lumber room was a wooden shed.
              Might have been storage for a local project or simply a line they sold for a shortish period of time.
              Curious why you consider it significant.
              Well I'm not really ..... just being polite for a change ...... d'oh!
              All the best Jerry
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                The lumber room was a wooden shed.
                Might have been storage for a local project or simply a line they sold for a shortish period of time.
                Curious why you consider it significant.
                Well I'm not really ..... just being polite for a change ...... d'oh!
                All the best Jerry
                I've mentioned it before and even though it relates to this thread, it would lead to a distraction, which I don't want to open up for that. When I get around to it, I will start a new thread to discuss it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                  I've mentioned it before and even though it relates to this thread, it would lead to a distraction, which I don't want to open up for that. When I get around to it, I will start a new thread to discuss it.
                  Pleasw let me know when you start that thread,

                  Jim
                  "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                  Comment


                  • Hi all,

                    Ok, I've been working on updating the simulation program, which basically means I'm rewriting it from scratch. I want to be able to load any map, enter the various "routes" that people follow, set their speeds, etc, and basically generate simulations where I can test different walking speeds, or check to see how well testimony lines up. For example, PC Harvey tells us he past the post office at 1:28, and that when he heard Morris's whistile he had just turned around and was heading back towards Duke street on Algate. He also said that he had patrolled Church Passage 3 or 4 minutes earlier. PC Watkins found the body at 1:44, and running across the square to Morris, the night watchman, would take only a few seconds. Morris would have his whistle on hand (it's part of his job), so I can't see more than 45 seconds passing. Anyway, as I've mentioned in a previous post, the estimated speed required to get from the post office to the vicinity of where he heard the whistle does end up being a speed that takes between 3 and 4 minutes to get from Church Passage to that same location. In other words, the testimony supports itself (it also tells us that PC Harvey was very slow on his patrol).

                    Anyway, I've set up a series of images from the new simulation, to give an idea of where people were (roughly). I've chosen 1:35 for the appearance of Lawende and company, and I've set the CPC couple to head into the square 5 seconds after Lawende and company move on. I've also chosen to have JtR flee at the point PC Harvey enters Church Passage.

                    I've set PC Watkins speed such that it takes him 14 minutes to complete one circuit. And I've adjusted PC Harevy's speed so that he enters Church Passage at 1:41 (which is the time typically agreed upon). Others, such as Lawende and company, the Church Passage Couple, and JtR, are all set to move at an average walking speed (which is faster than a patrolling police officer). Finally, Morris I've set at just over 6 MPH, which apparently is the average running speed for adult males today, so that seems like as good a choice as any.

                    Image 1: 1:28 Am.

                    Ok, the only characters in play are PC Harvey and PC Watkins. PC Harvey states he checked his time at the Post Office, so I've put him here (Blue dot beside the blue rectangle on the right). PC Watkins reports he had patrolled Mitre Square at 1:30, and given his patrol took him 14 minutes, I have his speed, so I backed him up by two minutes to estimate where he would roughly be at 1:28 (blue dot by the blue rectangle on the left).

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-28.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	120.4 KB
ID:	752515

                    And at 1:30, we have PC Watkins at what will become the crime scene. And PC Harvey is heading up Houndsditch. At this point in time, Lawende and company are getting up to leave the club but notice it is raining too heavily for them to set off.

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-30.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	120.4 KB
ID:	752516

                    Lawende and co wait between 3-5 minutes (Leve says 3-4 minutes, Lawende says 5). So, I've set them to come out of the club at 1:35 (Yellow). They notice the Church Passage Couple (Green), then head south towards Algate, putting their backs to the CPC. At this point, the rain has let up, and Lawende et al are now walking away from the CPC. On the assumption this is Eddowes and JtR, now that the rain has let up, they head into Mitre Square (so I had them move off at 1:35:05, just after Lawende et al head away from them.

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-35-06.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	121.2 KB
ID:	752517
                    I advanced the simulation until the CPC reaches the crime scene, moving at an average walking pace (3.1 mph), and they get there in 30 seconds:

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-35-36.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	121.1 KB
ID:	752518
                    The time in the simulation is now 1:35:36. I let it run until PC Harvey enters Church Passage, which triggers Jack (Red) to leave the scene.
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-41-01.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	120.7 KB
ID:	752519

                    I think advance the simulation, second by second, until PC Harvey reaches the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, all the while JtR walks off towards Mitre Street. When PC Harvey gets to the end of Church Passage, JtR is out of his line of sight and in Mitre Street already. PC Watkins is also not in position to spot JtR (if he heads north as I've set up here of course):

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-41-27.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	120.8 KB
ID:	752520
                    Now, PC Watkins continues his patrol until he finds the body at 1:44. I've had JtR head north, then cut across just above St. James Place, and out towards Goulston. That's just to give him somewhere to go, though.

                    When PC Watkins finds the body, JtR is quite far off, and PC Harvey is heading down Aldgate towards Mitre street (he's not turned around yet).
                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-44.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	120.8 KB
ID:	752521

                    I've given an additional 45 seconds for PC Watkins to run over to Morris (Purple), and for Morris to come out, see the body, then run off to blow his whistle. So Morris emerges at 1:44:46 type thing and PC Harvey is just turning to head back:

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-44-46.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	121.0 KB
ID:	752522

                    And runs out and south on Mitre Street and 15 seconds later, at 1:45, he's here, PC Harvey is, as he says, just heading back towards Duke on Aldgate, and JtR is already well on his way towards Goulston Street (and he's going no more than an average walking speed; if he runs, he would be even further, of course, but would also attract attention).

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-45.jpg
Views:	60
Size:	120.9 KB
ID:	752523

                    Anyway, everything fits with the testimony, but then, I've also made an effort to fit to the testimony. So far, I've not found anything that indicates the estimated times and locations are off. It does appear that PC Harvey, though, is patrolling at a pace well under the regulation pace of 2.5 mph (PC Watkins is set to patrol at 2.18 mph, a bit slow but not way off, while PC Harvey has to patrol at 1.7 mph to match his stated where and whens! We know he does eventually get let go from the police force, perhaps he was just too slow?

                    While I've chosen one particular scenerio that involves the CPC, and involves JtR heading out to Mitre Street and heading north and then cutting east, but one can always ignore the JtR and CPC markers if you have other ideas in mind. At least you know where the police are, and where known withnesses are (hmmm, I should add Blenkinsop in St. James Place).

                    Hope these images help people visualise some rough estimates of where various people were, and when.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                      Hi all,

                      Ok, I've been working on updating the simulation program, which basically means I'm rewriting it from scratch. I want to be able to load any map, enter the various "routes" that people follow, set their speeds, etc, and basically generate simulations where I can test different walking speeds, or check to see how well testimony lines up. For example, PC Harvey tells us he past the post office at 1:28, and that when he heard Morris's whistile he had just turned around and was heading back towards Duke street on Algate. He also said that he had patrolled Church Passage 3 or 4 minutes earlier. PC Watkins found the body at 1:44, and running across the square to Morris, the night watchman, would take only a few seconds. Morris would have his whistle on hand (it's part of his job), so I can't see more than 45 seconds passing. Anyway, as I've mentioned in a previous post, the estimated speed required to get from the post office to the vicinity of where he heard the whistle does end up being a speed that takes between 3 and 4 minutes to get from Church Passage to that same location. In other words, the testimony supports itself (it also tells us that PC Harvey was very slow on his patrol).

                      Anyway, I've set up a series of images from the new simulation, to give an idea of where people were (roughly). I've chosen 1:35 for the appearance of Lawende and company, and I've set the CPC couple to head into the square 5 seconds after Lawende and company move on. I've also chosen to have JtR flee at the point PC Harvey enters Church Passage.

                      I've set PC Watkins speed such that it takes him 14 minutes to complete one circuit. And I've adjusted PC Harevy's speed so that he enters Church Passage at 1:41 (which is the time typically agreed upon). Others, such as Lawende and company, the Church Passage Couple, and JtR, are all set to move at an average walking speed (which is faster than a patrolling police officer). Finally, Morris I've set at just over 6 MPH, which apparently is the average running speed for adult males today, so that seems like as good a choice as any.

                      Image 1: 1:28 Am.

                      Ok, the only characters in play are PC Harvey and PC Watkins. PC Harvey states he checked his time at the Post Office, so I've put him here (Blue dot beside the blue rectangle on the right). PC Watkins reports he had patrolled Mitre Square at 1:30, and given his patrol took him 14 minutes, I have his speed, so I backed him up by two minutes to estimate where he would roughly be at 1:28 (blue dot by the blue rectangle on the left).

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-28.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	120.4 KB
ID:	752515

                      And at 1:30, we have PC Watkins at what will become the crime scene. And PC Harvey is heading up Houndsditch. At this point in time, Lawende and company are getting up to leave the club but notice it is raining too heavily for them to set off.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-30.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	120.4 KB
ID:	752516

                      Lawende and co wait between 3-5 minutes (Leve says 3-4 minutes, Lawende says 5). So, I've set them to come out of the club at 1:35 (Yellow). They notice the Church Passage Couple (Green), then head south towards Algate, putting their backs to the CPC. At this point, the rain has let up, and Lawende et al are now walking away from the CPC. On the assumption this is Eddowes and JtR, now that the rain has let up, they head into Mitre Square (so I had them move off at 1:35:05, just after Lawende et al head away from them.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-35-06.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	121.2 KB
ID:	752517
                      I advanced the simulation until the CPC reaches the crime scene, moving at an average walking pace (3.1 mph), and they get there in 30 seconds:

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-35-36.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	121.1 KB
ID:	752518
                      The time in the simulation is now 1:35:36. I let it run until PC Harvey enters Church Passage, which triggers Jack (Red) to leave the scene.
                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-41-01.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	120.7 KB
ID:	752519

                      I think advance the simulation, second by second, until PC Harvey reaches the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, all the while JtR walks off towards Mitre Street. When PC Harvey gets to the end of Church Passage, JtR is out of his line of sight and in Mitre Street already. PC Watkins is also not in position to spot JtR (if he heads north as I've set up here of course):

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-41-27.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	120.8 KB
ID:	752520
                      Now, PC Watkins continues his patrol until he finds the body at 1:44. I've had JtR head north, then cut across just above St. James Place, and out towards Goulston. That's just to give him somewhere to go, though.

                      When PC Watkins finds the body, JtR is quite far off, and PC Harvey is heading down Aldgate towards Mitre street (he's not turned around yet).
                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-44.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	120.8 KB
ID:	752521

                      I've given an additional 45 seconds for PC Watkins to run over to Morris (Purple), and for Morris to come out, see the body, then run off to blow his whistle. So Morris emerges at 1:44:46 type thing and PC Harvey is just turning to head back:

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-44-46.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	121.0 KB
ID:	752522

                      And runs out and south on Mitre Street and 15 seconds later, at 1:45, he's here, PC Harvey is, as he says, just heading back towards Duke on Aldgate, and JtR is already well on his way towards Goulston Street (and he's going no more than an average walking speed; if he runs, he would be even further, of course, but would also attract attention).

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Escape_T01-45.jpg
Views:	60
Size:	120.9 KB
ID:	752523

                      Anyway, everything fits with the testimony, but then, I've also made an effort to fit to the testimony. So far, I've not found anything that indicates the estimated times and locations are off. It does appear that PC Harvey, though, is patrolling at a pace well under the regulation pace of 2.5 mph (PC Watkins is set to patrol at 2.18 mph, a bit slow but not way off, while PC Harvey has to patrol at 1.7 mph to match his stated where and whens! We know he does eventually get let go from the police force, perhaps he was just too slow?

                      While I've chosen one particular scenerio that involves the CPC, and involves JtR heading out to Mitre Street and heading north and then cutting east, but one can always ignore the JtR and CPC markers if you have other ideas in mind. At least you know where the police are, and where known withnesses are (hmmm, I should add Blenkinsop in St. James Place).

                      Hope these images help people visualise some rough estimates of where various people were, and when.

                      - Jeff
                      Good work Jeff, its nice to see where people were in relation to each other and further supports that Jack did in fact flee in the direction you thought.
                      "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                      Comment


                      • Good post Jeff.I always believed it was Harvey walking down the 85 feet church passage that spooked JTR,that he would not have stayed. Mitre Street was deserted,no witnesses came from there - unlike Duke street and St.James Pl had a manned fire station,and was closest and he escaped through there although I think towards Heneage Lane or Bury St towards Goring St. away from the "area".
                        Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
                        M. Pacana

                        Comment


                        • Excellent work Jeff. This sets everything out so clearly.
                          Why a four-year-old child could understand this report! Run out and find me a four-year-old child, I can't make head or tail of it.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                            Thank you, Christian. I haven't seen that map before. Thanks for posting it.

                            Apparently, in Heydemanns yard in 1888, was a lumber shed. Perhaps I'll start a thread that explains my thoughts on the possible significance of that.
                            Pleasure mate look forward to your views sir

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                              Thank you, Christian. I haven't seen that map before. Thanks for posting it.

                              Apparently, in Heydemanns yard in 1888, was a lumber shed. Perhaps I'll start a thread that explains my thoughts on the possible significance of that.
                              I spoke to a k&t employee many years ago who stated there was tunnels-passages underneath Mitre Square ajoining the warehouses!! Which if true would still be there!!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Christian View Post

                                I spoke to a k&t employee many years ago who stated there was tunnels-passages underneath Mitre Square ajoining the warehouses!! Which if true would still be there!!
                                Might have been the same ex employee who posted here.

                                Reckon the tunnels/passages have been excavated for the new building.
                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X