Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Fiver]

Ever consider they were blackmailing Jack the Ripper ?

Attempting to blackmail a serial killer would be an act of extreme stupidity. Meeting the killer alone and unarmed requires even greater stupidity. Nothing indicates that Eddowes was that stunningly stupid.

[Fiver]

Homosexuals were an easier target after the Labouchere Amendment to the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885.

It was a long road to that Act.

Remember Mary Kelly worked at a GAY house.

In Victorian slang, a "gay house" was a brothel with female prostitutes and male clients. "Gay" did not become a slang term for homosexuality until after World War II.

[Scott Nelson]

Have you discovered something that upsets the accepted genealogy of Marie Lloyd’s husband, John Joseph ‘Steve’ McCarthy?

Gary

If somebody would kindly demonstrate that the Miller's Court John McCarthy was part of the Marie Lloyd genealogy, great. I'm not doubting there was a John McCarthy, Esq. and a McCarthy Jr. Esq. who were involved in lodging houses, promoting fights, theatrical productions, comedy, charity causes, etc., just that Miller's Court McCarthy and McCarthy Esq. were the same persons.

[Fiver]

The Five were blackmailing their medical officer who was a homosexual and a teaching pathologist.

Eddowes was a source of several specimens and had been a patient for almost 21 years.

That makes even less sense than the idea that Eddowes would try to meet blackmail a serial killer by meeting him alone and unarmed. It require her doing this after knowing that two previous blackmailers, Nichols and and Chapman, had gotten killed and mutilated instead of getting any money. And it would require even more incredible levels of stupidity for Kelly to invite the same serial killer into her flat while she is alone and unarmed, and trying to blackmail him after he's murdered four previous would-be blackmailers.

[MrBarnett]

If somebody would kindly demonstrate that the Miller's Court John McCarthy was part of the Marie Lloyd genealogy, great. I'm not doubting there was a John McCarthy, Esq. and a McCarthy Jr. Esq. who were involved in lodging houses, promoting fights, theatrical productions, comedy, charity causes, etc., just that Miller's Court McCarthy and McCarthy Esq. were the same persons.

You’ve seen Steve and Marie’s marriage cert? Steve was living at 27, Dorset Street when he married and his father John was a grocer.

Or the press report stating that Marie Lloyd’s father-in-Law was the proprietor of lodging houses on Dorset Street and in Limehouse?

What is the straw you are clutching onto for dear life?

That there might have been two John McCarthy’s of 27, Dorset Street, one of whom was McCarthy Esq. who was Steve’s dad, a grocer and a lodging house keeper and another who was MJK’s landlord?

You have to have a reason for dismissing what appears to be obvious to pretty much everyone else.

Why not start a thread with your evidence so we don’t keep derailing this one.

[Varqm]

I believe thats a feature one can actually use to evaluate the possibilities....the intention to acquire internal organs for the finale. Thats unusual. Its also possible this could be broken into subgroups too...man seeking female abdominal organs. He might have targeted only females because he thought the attack would be easier for him, and working street women take strangers to dark places routinely, so a good target. Which suggest a killer who counts on an Opportunity. He doesnt lead them, they lead. He doesnt really choose the spot..unless he pounces on an impulse, so it seems hes taking a chance here. What if the woman is strong and can fight? What is she leads him into a spot with only 1 exit?...(See Hanbury and Millers Court). Lots of variables.

It might explain why someone would choose to get Kate into Mitre Square..presumbly even if he knew the police patrolled that area, he may not have know they used 2 of three access points to do so, but he is likely aware they did come by. There is a suggestion of bravado taking this action without assessing all the potential ways this could go wrong and taking measure to offset them. He takes risks. Confidence. No meek street dweller with low self esteem there.

Yes he knew what he was doing,and as often described he knew the area.I believe he knew Mitre Square and the surrounding area.I also believe he was escaping to the Aldgate/Portsoken city area to escape since this was one of his base (the other was Spitalfields Market) and not to specifically find another victim.But coincidentally Eddowes was just released just about the time he ran from Berner St.,when Diemschutz came along.He held on to the apron in his hiding place in the Aldgate/Portsoken I believe.He did not do "doubles",as is well-known,except for Sept.30.

[DJA]

In Victorian slang, a "gay house" was a brothel with female prostitutes and male clients. "Gay" did not become a slang term for homosexuality until after World War II.

As a poor Catholic youth, Saul's opportunities were limited.^[5] At eighteen he was charged with committing an indecent offence.^[6] Giving testimony in the later Cleveland Street scandal, Saul called himself "a professional Mary-ann" – a period euphemism for rentboy, and stated: "I have lost my character and cannot get on otherwise. I occasionally do odd-jobs for different gay people.

[DJA]

attempting to blackmail a serial killer would be an act of extreme stupidity. Meeting the killer alone and unarmed requires even greater stupidity. "nothing" indicates that eddowes was that stunningly stupid.

fify

[JeffHamm]

As a poor Catholic youth, Saul's opportunities were limited.^[5] At eighteen he was charged with committing an indecent offence.^[6] Giving testimony in the later Cleveland Street scandal, Saul called himself "a professional Mary-ann" – a period euphemism for rentboy, and stated: "I have lost my character and cannot get on otherwise. I occasionally do odd-jobs for different gay people.

The word "gay" in this context (Victorian usage), was an adjective that effectively meant "carefree", though I believe did have some hedonistic associations. It did not, however, specifically mean homosexual, though in the context above and our modern use of the word it is easy to see how it might. However, gay could refer to anyone, so a homosexual or heterosexual could be referred to as gay because it was used differently then we use it today. I believe it was after WWII that the word gay shifted to refer to male homosexuals, and later (maybe the 1970s or 80s) expanded to include homosexual women as well, completing its transition to become synonymous with homosexual. In other words, the above doesn't mean what we initially think it means.

- Jeff

[DJA]

The word "gay" in this context (Victorian usage), was an adjective that effectively meant "carefree", though I believe did have some hedonistic associations. It did not, however, specifically mean homosexual, though in the context above and our modern use of the word it is easy to see how it might. However, gay could refer to anyone, so a homosexual or heterosexual could be referred to as gay because it was used differently then we use it today. I believe it was after WWII that the word gay shifted to refer to male homosexuals, and later (maybe the 1970s or 80s) expanded to include homosexual women as well, completing its transition to become synonymous with homosexual. In other words, the above doesn't mean what we initially think it means.

- Jeff

John Saul was a professional in house homosexual prostitute giving evidence in the Cleveland Street scandal.
He was describing what he did for a living.
Probably be worth your time reading the full transcript,you might just learn something!

[Michael W Richards]

The word "gay" in this context (Victorian usage), was an adjective that effectively meant "carefree", though I believe did have some hedonistic associations. It did not, however, specifically mean homosexual, though in the context above and our modern use of the word it is easy to see how it might. However, gay could refer to anyone, so a homosexual or heterosexual could be referred to as gay because it was used differently then we use it today. I believe it was after WWII that the word gay shifted to refer to male homosexuals, and later (maybe the 1970s or 80s) expanded to include homosexual women as well, completing its transition to become synonymous with homosexual. In other words, the above doesn't mean what we initially think it means.

- Jeff

I believe DJA has found reference to it being used in that manner, but your correct that Gay and Homosexual were not synonomous words in Victorian London Jeff.

[Juniper4576]

Yes he knew what he was doing,and as often described he knew the area.I believe he knew Mitre Square and the surrounding area.I also believe he was escaping to the Aldgate/Portsoken city area to escape since this was one of his base (the other was Spitalfields Market) and not to specifically find another victim.But coincidentally Eddowes was just released just about the time he ran from Berner St.,when Diemschutz came along.He held on to the apron in his hiding place in the Aldgate/Portsoken I believe.He did not do "doubles",as is well-known,except for Sept.30.

I agree...I believe he remained in control of the situation the whole time. From the incapacitating, likely strangulation, to the dispatching, the cutting of the throat deep enough so they bled out quick, to the ripping and knowing what he wanted from the victims; kidney, uterus etc.

With Kate as an example, the intestines were placed where they were found, not by design but on purpose so he could get to what he was after...her kidney.

All the time he was conscious of his surroundings and acted quickly and as I mentioned before slipped into the shadows and popped out somewhere else.

Jim

[JeffHamm]

John Saul was a professional in house homosexual prostitute giving evidence in the Cleveland Street scandal.
He was describing what he did for a living.
Probably be worth your time reading the full transcript,you might just learn something!

Hi DJA,

I'm aware of that. And the definition of "carefree, with hedonistic undertones" for gay works perfectly well in the context it was used. Notwithstanding that the modern interpretation (homosexual) also "works", that still doesn't mean the modern usage was intended at the time. Particularly because the known 1800s definition works perfectly well and that was when the statement was made.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

Why not start a thread with your evidence so we don’t keep derailing this one.

Well, it's now about homosexuality. Certainly nothing to do with Jack's escape from Mitre Square.

[JeffHamm]

Well, it's now about homosexuality. Certainly nothing to do with Jack's escape from Mitre Square.

Yes, that's true, thanks for pointing that out. We're getting a bit off track lately. Probably best, if people wish to continue the various detours we've taken, to start new threads on those and to get this one back to the topic. Otherwise, a lot of the interesting stuff we cover here will not get found, defeating the purpose of having the conversations in the first place.

- Jeff