Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Wickerman]

Hi Joshua,



Well, Kate was lying prone, so would cast a low profile, while JtR would be hunched over her, and that would be more easily seen. But, it depends upon just how dark it was. It was overcast from the rain, so it may have been possible, but it feels lucky to me. Without knowing how dark it was, and how much interference from the light PC Harvey would experience, it's hard to know.

- Jeff

Just another observation.
Dr. Gordon Brown's sketch suggests her body was far enough away from the wall for a man to crouch facing the open square. Which to me makes more sense than crouching with your back to the square.
The only light came from across the square, however helpful that was, but operating with your back to the square seems wholly unnatural to me.

[FISHY1118]

Timeline of the Events in Mitre Square

Taking the foregoing into account, a reasonable sequence of events for the night in question might be summarised as follows:

01:37:00 ... Lawende et al pass Eddowes and Jack outside Church Passage

01:38:00 ... Eddowes and Jack enter Mitre Square and walk to “Ripper’s Corner”

01:39:00 ... Jack kills Eddowes. Crouching just below her right shoulder, he first mutilates her face

01:40:00 ... The jagged cut to the abdomen is inflicted, with Jack still positioned to the body’s right

01:40:30 ... Evisceration starts. The small intestines are lifted over the shoulder

01:41:00 ... Perhaps on purpose, perhaps by accident, Jack decides to remove the kidney first

01:42:00 ... Jack begins to remove the uterus

01:42:30 ... He botches the operation and cuts through the colon by mistake

01:43:00 ... Perhaps in a feet of pique, he cuts the rest of the colon away and lays it at Kate’s side

01:43:30 ... His hands contaminated by faeces, Jack cuts the piece of Kate’s apron to wipe his hands

01:44:00 ... Perhaps sensing the arrival of PC Watkins, Jack hastily leaves Mitre Square

INTERESTING, 1.30 MINUTES TO REMOVE THE KIDNEY AND THE UTERUS ...AND IN THE DARK TOO.. i dont see any comment or reply to this post ,surely im not the only one that thinks this is incredible, forget all about eddows being lead in through church passage at 1.37 for all this to happen in the time line shown.

[Sam Flynn]

Not sure what you're getting at with the chalk wall?

It can't tell us much anyway, for various reasons I won't go into here, mainly because GSG has a habit of taking over threads and opening up all the usual rabbit-holes

[Joshua Rogan]

Just another observation.
Dr. Gordon Brown's sketch suggests her body was far enough away from the wall for a man to crouch facing the open square. Which to me makes more sense than crouching with your back to the square.
The only light came from across the square, however helpful that was, but operating with your back to the square seems wholly unnatural to me.

Never the less, I agree with Dr Brown when, according to the Telegraph, he said;

"I should say that the abdominal wounds were inflicted by a person kneeling at the right side of the body."

Perhaps Jack was relying more on sound than vision to detect approachong PCs?

[Wickerman]

Never the less, I agree with Dr Brown when, according to the Telegraph, he said;

"I should say that the abdominal wounds were inflicted by a person kneeling at the right side of the body."

Perhaps Jack was relying more on sound than vision to detect approachong PCs?

I suspect Brown was more influenced by the thrust and direction of the wound opening up the thorax and abdomen, it does suggest a right handed killer. As had been the case with Nichols, Chapman & Stride.
What indications there were within the abdomen to suggest he was operating from the right side of the body is hard to imagine.

[Sam Flynn]

Dr. Gordon Brown's sketch suggests her body was far enough away from the wall for a man to crouch facing the open square. Which to me makes more sense than crouching with your back to the square.

I very much take the opposite view, Jon, and gave my reasons in my Ripperologist article By Accident or Design. I'm with Josh Rogan and Dr Brown on this.

[Trevor Marriott]

I suspect Brown was more influenced by the thrust and direction of the wound opening up the thorax and abdomen, it does suggest a right handed killer. As had been the case with Nichols, Chapman & Stride.
What indications there were within the abdomen to suggest he was operating from the right side of the body is hard to imagine.

I asked Dr Biggs this question, his answers are interesting both in relation to the topic of this thread but in relation to the other murders

Q. The doctors in their reports offer opinions as to in which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders. Are these opinions reliable or simply guesswork?

A. In answer to your question, it is really impossible to say with certainty how the wounds were inflicted in terms of ‘reconstructing’ events from the appearance of wounds. This is something that used to be quite ‘popular’ even up until relatively late on in the 20thcentury, with pathologists stating confidently that a left-handed dwarf with a limp inflicted the injury from behind using a specific knife, etc. Nowadays it is accepted that there is so much variation that in such cases, apart from a few ‘extreme’ scenarios that can be more-or-less excluded, just about anything is possible.

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping...) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on. Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), and nobody can be certain about a ‘reconstruction’ now based on photos / medical records. If a number of envisaged scenarios are actually ‘possible’, then nobody can really argue in favor of a particular one any more than another.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping...) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling).

There are a number of practical and logical considerations that support the idea of the killer's being located on the victim's right hand side, as Dr Brown opined.

[Sam Flynn]

BTW, I should point out that the killer's handedness has no relationship whatsoever to the topic of this thread.

[Trevor Marriott]

There are a number of practical and logical considerations that support the idea of the killer's being located on the victim's right hand side, as Dr Brown opined.

Sam

I only ask the questions, if the answers as given by an expert are not to your liking then so be it.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

BTW, I should point out that the killer's handedness has no relationship whatsoever to the topic of this thread.

Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


I suspect Brown was more influenced by the thrust and direction of the wound opening up the thorax and abdomen, it does suggest a right handed killer. As had been the case with Nichols, Chapman & Stride.

What indications there were within the abdomen to suggest he was operating from the right side of the body is hard to imagine.

My reply was relevant to this post !!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

I only ask the questions, if the answers as given by an expert are not to your liking then so be it.

This isn't a medical or a forensic question, but one of practicalities and logistics. You don't need a medical degree to be an "expert" in such matters.

What indications there were within the abdomen to suggest he was operating from the right side of the body is hard to imagine.

For one, her left kidney was removed. Someone working on the left side, reaching into that vertical slit down Eddowes' abdomen, would have had to hold his arms in very awkward positions in order to make those cuts and extract the kidney, and the colon too for that matter.

For more reasons why I'd locate the killer on the right hand side of the body, please read my dissertation By Accident or Design, which you'll find in the "Dissertations" section of this website. And let's not discuss it on this thread, please - the killer's handedness has no bearing whatsoever on the question of "Jack's Escape from Mitre Square". The killer's handedness is in any case a questioin that should be considered in light of all the murders, not just that of Catherine Eddowes.

[Trevor Marriott]

This isn't a medical or a forensic question, but one of practicalities and logistics. You don't need a medical degree to be an "expert" in such matters.
For one, her left kidney was removed. Someone working on the left side, reaching into that vertical slit down Eddowes' abdomen, would have had to hold his arms in very awkward positions in order to make those cuts and extract the kidney, and the colon too for that matter.

For more reasons why I'd locate the killer on the right hand side of the body, please read my dissertation By Accident or Design, which you'll find in the "Dissertations" section of this website. And let's not discuss it on this thread, please - the killer's handedness has no bearing whatsoever on the question of "Jack's Escape from Mitre Square". The killer's handedness is in any case a questioin that should be considered in light of all the murders, not just that of Catherine Eddowes.

But your theory is based on the killer being responsible for removing her organs at the scene

Please read the chapter on Eddowes in my book Jack the Ripper-The real truth where I suggest the killer did not remove the organs at the crime scene !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

But your theory is based on the killer being responsible for removing her organs at the scene

That's a whole other can of worms I'm not going to discuss on this thread, Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

That's a whole other can of worms I'm not going to discuss on this thread, Trevor.

I wasnt suggesting we do

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk