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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Joshua,

    Morris just opens the door a bit to aid sweeping up, he doesn't report opening it wide or going into the square, so I don't think Morris looked out. But it is within possibilities that JtR had his back to PC Harvey and didn't notice him and was lucky not to be seen. I don't like too much luck involved myself though, and tend to think that JtR would have fled as PC Harvey came up the passage, so he was out of there by the time PC Harvey reached the Mitre Square end (there's lamps at both ends, so I'm presuming Harvey would be visible as he made is patrol).

    - Jeff
    You say it would have been lucky for Jack had Harvey not seen JtR, yet the PC didn't see Kate's body which must have been there, whether Jack still was or not. Which seems to show that it wasn't possible for Harvey to see clearly into that corner from the end of the passage. Or that he didn't look.
    ​​​​​​

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    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

      I'm not a medical expert, but I would think if she bled out, and then it rained, that would interfere with clotting as the blood dilutes? I don't have the reports in front of me, but don't they report a large clot of blood beside her neck?
      Correct, Jeff. There was a congealing puddle of blood to the left of her throat.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
        Given that neither Harvey nor Morris spotted Kate's body across the square, miggt it be that the killer simply remained still at their appearance, rather than drawing attention to himself by moving?
        Especially if he was wearing dark clothing and crouched with his back to Church Passage.
        Would you if you were the killer with a policeman walking in your direction ?

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          Indeed, and I'd also suggest that there's a difference between getting wet whilst walking through the rain, and getting drenched by a downpour when you're spreadeagled on the ground, with your clothing splayed out either side of you and the wall of your abdomen peeled open. It would have been very apparent if Eddowes had been killed during the downpour and, I'd suggest, it would have been noted.
          Where is the evidence which shows her clothes were dry. If it were raining when she left the police station or it started soon afterwards how did she avoid getting wet for such a long period of time?

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

            Where is the evidence which shows her clothes were dry.
            Who said they were dry? I'm just saying that if her clothing been saturated by her having lain stationary in heavy rain I think we'd have known about it. For one thing, her blood would have been more dissipated and, arguably, that clot might not have formed; for another, was can see from the Foster drawing that her abdominal cavity was lying wide open, almost inviting any rainwater to fill her up. Yet there's not a hint of any such phenomena being noted and, to me, it's pretty obvious that she must have been killed and opened up after the rain had stopped.
            If it were raining when she left the police station or it started soon afterwards how did she avoid getting wet for such a long period of time?
            There were doorways (etc) to duck into.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
              Would you if you were the killer with a policeman walking in your direction ?
              Speaking personally, I rather think I would. Which is probably why my career as a serial killer would have been somewhat shorter and less mysterious than Jack's.
              ​​​

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                Who said they were dry? I'm just saying that if her clothing been saturated by her having lain stationary in heavy rain I think we'd have known about it. For one thing, her blood would have been more dissipated and, arguably, that clot might not have formed; for another, was can see from the Foster drawing that her abdominal cavity was lying wide open, almost inviting any rainwater to fill her up. Yet there's not a hint of any such phenomena being noted and, to me, it's pretty obvious that she must have been killed and opened up after the rain had stopped.

                There were doorways (etc) to duck into.
                I doubt her abdomen would have filled up with rainwater thats a bit too unbelievable. If the murder location was cobbled then that would have had an effect on how the pool of blood was viewed, and also disperse the amount of water under the body to soak the clothes.

                She could not have dobbed in and out of doorways for 30 mins, she would have to have gone out in the rain at some point to be able to get to where she met her killer, or perhaps she met him some time shortly after her release and they re-enacted the iconic Gene Kelly routine from singing in the rain o route to Mitre Sq

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                  Yes, I would think so. I'm not a medical expert, but I would think if she bled out, and then it rained, that would interfere with clotting as the blood dilutes? I don't have the reports in front of me, but don't they report a large clot of blood beside her neck?

                  - Jeff
                  PC Long reported one corner of the apron piece was "wet with blood".
                  If her apron was wet with rain any blood stains would be moist anyway, which makes his claim more difficult to determine. Unless, her apron was dry, and she had not stood, or walked, for any length of time in the rain.
                  The domestic apron was normally worn on top of dresses & skirts, but under any coat. And Eddowes was described as wearing a black jacket leaving most of the apron exposed to whatever rain was falling - IF, she stood in the rain.

                  Ever tried to write in chalk on a wet wall?
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    Ever tried to write in chalk on a wet wall?
                    Hi Jon...am I correct that it was only Warren who stated explicitly that the writing was on the doorway dado? I have a feeling I've previously, (long time ago now), suggested that most of the other sources merely state that the writing (and hence the apron piece) were in the stairwell (or lobby or whatever you call it)...I had a feeling Warren was perhaps bidding to protect his reputation, (and perhaps pension, as his resignation was in, or close to!), by justifying his decision to remove the graffito...Purely surmise of course, but if it were the case, then the wall wouldn't be wet...sorry if I digressed away from the thread!

                    (Been away a bit, but on returning it was good to see you still battling away...hope you're well...)

                    Dave
                    Last edited by Cogidubnus; 06-01-2019, 11:45 PM. Reason: apology added

                    Comment


                    • Hi Joshua,

                      Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                      You say it would have been lucky for Jack had Harvey not seen JtR, yet the PC didn't see Kate's body which must have been there, whether Jack still was or not. Which seems to show that it wasn't possible for Harvey to see clearly into that corner from the end of the passage. Or that he didn't look.
                      ​​​​​​
                      Well, Kate was lying prone, so would cast a low profile, while JtR would be hunched over her, and that would be more easily seen. But, it depends upon just how dark it was. It was overcast from the rain, so it may have been possible, but it feels lucky to me. Without knowing how dark it was, and how much interference from the light PC Harvey would experience, it's hard to know.

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post

                        Hi Jon...am I correct that it was only Warren who stated explicitly that the writing was on the doorway dado? I have a feeling I've previously, (long time ago now), suggested that most of the other sources merely state that the writing (and hence the apron piece) were in the stairwell (or lobby or whatever you call it)...I had a feeling Warren was perhaps bidding to protect his reputation, (and perhaps pension, as his resignation was in, or close to!), by justifying his decision to remove the graffito...Purely surmise of course, but if it were the case, then the wall wouldn't be wet...sorry if I digressed away from the thread!

                        (Been away a bit, but on returning it was good to see you still battling away...hope you're well...)

                        Dave
                        Hello Dave, welcome back. You were missed!

                        Warren had no concern about his reputation Dave.
                        He was militaristic to a fault, just tell it like it is, and yes, lets not wander off on a tangent. I knew I was risking derailing the thread. It was more of a joke than anything.
                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                          I doubt her abdomen would have filled up with rainwater thats a bit too unbelievable.
                          You're right of course, Trevor, but I was being figurative not literal. What I meant was that there was a gaping cavity there that was fully open to the elements, so it would certainly have collected some water if it had been exposed to a shower of rain.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                          Comment


                          • Hi Wickerman,

                            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                            PC Long reported one corner of the apron piece was "wet with blood".
                            If her apron was wet with rain any blood stains would be moist anyway, which makes his claim more difficult to determine. Unless, her apron was dry, and she had not stood, or walked, for any length of time in the rain.
                            The domestic apron was normally worn on top of dresses & skirts, but under any coat. And Eddowes was described as wearing a black jacket leaving most of the apron exposed to whatever rain was falling - IF, she stood in the rain.

                            Ever tried to write in chalk on a wet wall?
                            Are you suggesting it didn't rain? Not sure what you're getting at with the chalk wall?

                            - Jeff

                            Comment


                            • Slightly off-thread GSG gag Jeff - see my post #324...

                              Dave

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                                Hi Wickerman,



                                Are you suggesting it didn't rain? Not sure what you're getting at with the chalk wall?

                                - Jeff
                                More, that the graffiti was written before it rained. My bad.
                                Regards, Jon S.

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