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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    I wasnt suggesting we do
    Thanks, but just in case others feel like doing so... please don't
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      I very much take the opposite view, Jon, and gave my reasons in my Ripperologist article By Accident or Design. I'm with Josh Rogan and Dr Brown on this.
      You don't think he was both influenced by the initial incision in Eddowes abdomen, nor the previous murders?

      I have wondered why Dr Brown did not say the throat wound. As most other cases this cut was described as left to right, yet he only described the characteristics of the throat wound, just how it looked, with no assumption given as to whether the cut/s were L-R or R-L.
      Regards, Jon S.

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      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        BTW, I should point out that the killer's handedness has no relationship whatsoever to the topic of this thread.
        Yep, my fault again....
        Regards, Jon S.

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        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          And let's not discuss it on this thread, please - the killer's handedness has no bearing whatsoever on the question of "Jack's Escape from Mitre Square". The killer's handedness is in any case a questioin that should be considered in light of all the murders, not just that of Catherine Eddowes.
          Actually it might. If Jack worked from the right side of her body -- assuming he was right-handed -- that means his back would have been to Church Passage and St. James Place passage. If he heard someone coming down into the square from either location, his natural flight would have been out the carriageway entrance into Mitre Street (glancing around the street corner first to see if anybody was coming.)

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          • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

            Actually it might.
            And even more to the point, perhaps, the geographical profiler Rossmo did a study claiming that right and left handed people, when fleeing a crime scene, tend to take different paths. The right-handed person will take turnings to the right, the left-handed to the left. Take it for what it's worth.

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            • I should add that that is when the perpetrator is attempting to elude any would-be followers, as opposed to going to a specific location.

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              • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                Actually it might. If Jack worked from the right side of her body -- assuming he was right-handed -- that means his back would have been to Church Passage and St. James Place passage. If he heard someone coming down into the square from either location, his natural flight would have been out the carriageway entrance into Mitre Street (glancing around the street corner first to see if anybody was coming.)
                Interesting points, Scott, but once he'd secured the organs (working on the right of the body, as I say), he could have sensed/heard someone approach via Mitre St, then turned and made his escape via Church Passage. Not that I necessarily think that he did.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                  More, that the graffiti was written before it rained. My bad.
                  Ah, ok. That confused me for a bit (but that's easy enough to do! ha ha). That's possible as we don't know if JtR wrote it. But if it was written before the rain, and not in a location that was sheltered from it, that would indicate it was not by JtR for sure.

                  - Jeff

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                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    Just another observation.
                    Dr. Gordon Brown's sketch suggests her body was far enough away from the wall for a man to crouch facing the open square. Which to me makes more sense than crouching with your back to the square.
                    The only light came from across the square, however helpful that was, but operating with your back to the square seems wholly unnatural to me.
                    Yes, but don't the reports suggest he was on her right side, which would put him back to the square. It doesn't seem the best way to spot someone to me either, but it would be consistent with his position for Nichols and Chapman as well.

                    - Jeff

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                    • It was the way her body was positioned, with the head towards the corner. If she was laying the other way, a right-handed Ripper could have worked with his back to the wall and faced the square.

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                      • Reckon he was ambidextrous

                        Many surgeons are.

                        My suspect was partially deaf.
                        Possibly from being hit on the left ear for using his left hand in his younger years.
                        He lectured on anatomy/pathology with his left hand secured by a pocket.
                        Last edited by DJA; 06-02-2019, 09:49 PM.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                        • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                          Reckon he was ambidextrous

                          Many surgeons are.

                          My suspect was partially deaf.
                          Possibly from being hit on the left ear for using his left hand in his younger years.
                          He lectured on anatomy/pathology with his left hand secured by a pocket.
                          You'll be upsetting everyone suggesting surgical skill involved ...
                          There are some who think kidneys just fall out on their own ....
                          You can lead a horse to water.....

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                          • Hi all,

                            Medical reports at the time suggest that JtR required 5 minutes to commit the murder and mutilations. Some modern opinions have suggested as little as 2-3 minutes. The shorter estimates will extend the “window of opportunity” by 3-2 minutes, respectively by allowing the murder to happen that amount later than the cut offs I list here. The 5 minute window, basically, will give us the smallest window of opportunity.

                            Eddowes body was found at 1:44 by PC Watkins. That allows us to place a marker in time that indicates the very latest time for the murder to commence, 1:39. No, this doesn’t include time for JtR to leave Mitre Square, but as we don’t know how he left (which exit, how fast, and so forth) I’m not going to estimate it. What we do know is that the murder must be underway before 1:39.

                            Now, there are two events just prior to PC Watkn’s discovery of the body that occurred, PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage around 1:41-1:42 (my simulation of his beat estimated 1:40-1:41, so I’m happy with that as a simulation, but it’s only a simulation so we’ll go with his testimony). Also, Morris states that a few minutes before PC Watkins came to get him he opened the door a bit while sweeping out, so that too could have been around 1:41. These events are both things that, if noticed by JtR would likely trigger a flee response, but of course, we don’t know if they did. Those would suggest the murder must have started no later than 1:36. So our latest start time of 1:39 can be sub-divided into a “high probability before 1:36” and the “if he stuck around anyway times between 1:36 and 1:39”.

                            We know PC Watkins patrolled Mitre Square at 1:30, and it would require about 1 minute and 30 seconds for him to do so at regulation speed. So the murder cannot start before 1:31:30.

                            While contentious, based upon the description of the clotted blood by her neck, and also by the unlikely choice of going to conduct business during a downpour, the murder appears to have happened after the rain stopped. Lawende, Levy, & Harris report they got up to leave the club at 1:30, found it was raining and waited it out, then left. Levy estimated they waited 3-4 minutes, Lawende stated “about 5”. So, the rain ended somewhere between 1:33 and 1:35, giving us the earliest probable start time for the murder of 1:33.

                            So, our widest window is from 1:31:30 (Watkins clears the square) to 1:39, 5 minutes before his return. No matter who JtR was, or where he entered the square with Eddowes, there is only a 7 minute 30 second time window within which Eddowes and JtR must enter the scene.

                            That includes two “lower probability zones”, between 1:31:30 and the ending of the rain between 1:33-1:35), and the latter 1:37-1:39, making our widest “high probability” window the 4 minutes between 1:33 to 1:37, and our narrowest version from 1:35-1:37, which is only 2 minutes. Actually, to avoid the prejudicial terms “low” and “high” probability, let’s call these the “contestable” and “non-contestable” time windows. These “time windows” apply to when the murder started no matter who JtR is (Lawende and Levy’s sightings of the Church Passage Couple are also the estimated time for the rain to have stopped, so even if that is not Eddowes and JtR the times still apply.)

                            At an average walking speed (3.1 mph; 273 ft/min), it would take 36 seconds to traverse from the end of Church Passage to the crime scene. It would take 20 seconds to traverse the 95 feet from the end of the covered passage to St. James Place to the crime scene. Entering from Mitre Street would require 12 seconds from the point one turns off Mitre Street into the Square, but as PC Watkins does not report seeing a couple, they would have to be some distance from that point when he exits, and as he went North after exiting, the couple would in all probability have to be south. There is a covered passage south, on Mitre Street. The distance from there to the crime scene is 200 ft, so requires 44 Seconds to get to the crime scene.

                            Now, the argument that Eddowes and JtR will not be conducting business in the rain suggests they are sheltering from the rain until it stops. So our “start times” are really when they “start their journey” to the crime scene.

                            And all of these locations do allow access to the crime scene within even the most narrow of the uncontested time window. With the Church Passage Couple requiring 36 seconds to traverse that distance, they have 1 minute and 24 seconds of that time window to begin their journey. We also know that they are not there when PC Harvey patrols Church Passage at 1:41-1:42, so we know they have left this location during the 6 minutes between 1:35 (Lawende’s time) and 1:41 (PC Harvey’s time). That becomes 8 minutes if using Levy’s 1:33.

                            Obviously, if the Church Passage Couple can enter during this non-contested 2 minutes, so could an unsighted couple from the covered passage to St. James Place. In fact, even an unsighted couple in the covered passage on Mitre Street has enough time to enter the passage. So any of these locations, could be a starting point for a journey that begins when the rain stopped and ends at the crime scene location.

                            I’ve indicated those locations (filled circles) and journeys (lines) on the map (Blue for Church Passage Couple, purple for unreported couple in St. James Place, and Green for unreported couple south on Mitre Street – sorry, map was cut off a bit there, but close enough).

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	MitreSquare_Full.jpg Views:	0 Size:	273.7 KB ID:	711926

                            Now, one last interesting bit. St. Botolph’s Church was known as the “prostitute’s Church” because they would walk around here to find customer’s (see https://casebook.org/victorian_londo....w-church.html ), where it indicates this is in the area that Eddowes was previously arrested that night for drunkenness. The journey I’ve marked would require about 90 seconds at an average walking speed. Also, in another thread here, I speculated that if JtR did kill Stride, he may have fled south from there, and upon his returning north ends up near Mitre Square. In fact, it turns out (I just discovered now), that proposed journey places him right at St. Botolphs Church’s doorstep. The distance as plotted is about 0.867 miles so around 16 or 17 minutes at an average walking speed. More than enough time to get from Stride’s murder to St. Botolph’s Church and then have time to get to Church Passage, the closest of the 3 potential locations. Not shown, but there’s also time to get to the other two more distant locations as well.

                            Now, admittedly, this last bit is based entirely upon my speculated escape from Berner Street route, for which I offer no evidence because there is none, and other routes are possible that would also bring JtR to St. Botolphs Church (down Algate, for example). But, this gets him there at just after the time Eddowes would have arrived upon her release from the Police station, which is about 8-10 minutes away as I recall (sorry, the distance shown is from the church to Church Passage; the other distance measurement is underneath, and I can't move it - it reads 0.867 miles; there might be a shorter way if he can get north of tracks earlier, but shorter just makes it easier).

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Stride-Eddowes-ChurchPassage.jpg Views:	0 Size:	144.6 KB ID:	711927

                            And I’ll leave the speculation zone now, but wanted to share that as food for thought. And no, I’m not insisting this be viewed as anything other than a “hmmm” moment.

                            In short, though, all the proposed locations do allow for Eddowes and JtR to reach the crime scene within the very narrow critical, “uncontested”, time window, so obviously the wider versions must work too. One of those locations (Church Passage) has a couple sighted, who are not there by 1:41, which is after this time window has closed. The others have decreasing evidence (there are people reported in St. James Place, but no mention of couples or of anyone going into the passage), and nobody at all is reported in Mitre Street (but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

                            Therefore, I think the Church Passage Couple must be considered the most supported hypothesis, St. James Place passage the next most supported, and Mitre Street the least supported (but not impossible) location of Eddowes and JtR prior to the murder. I think there’s good reason to suggest they met originally at St. Botolph’s Church, and that also allows them to get to any of those locations. Also, and purely speculative, St. Botolphs Church is tantalizingly connected to a speculative route I’ve suggested before with regards to connecting how escaping from Stride’s murder may have led to a chance encounter with Eddowes.

                            - Jeff

                            Oh, if we presume they start their journey from St. Botolphs Church, the shortest route is via Church Passage, and that would require about 2 minutes 6 seconds at an average walking pace. That's too long for our shortest time window, but inside the wider ranges based on Levy's estimate of the time the rain stopped.
                            Last edited by JeffHamm; 06-02-2019, 10:53 PM.

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                            • All this , assuming Eddows was if fact [and its not a fact] the women Lawende identified . Eddows more likely entered Mitre street at 1.33am 7 min till Harvey stood at the end of church passage 10 mins before Watkins discovered her body . Simple as that .

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                              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                                ...

                                Now, the argument that Eddowes and JtR will not be conducting business in the rain suggests they are sheltering from the rain until it stops. So our “start times” are really when they “start their journey” to the crime scene.
                                Hi Jeff.

                                So you have two scenario's involving two hypothetical couples who wait in a covered passage, because it is raining.
                                Yet, the traditional suspected couple have no shelter at the Duke St. end of Church Passage with which to avoid the rain. If Eddowes was the female, she had to be soaking wet.
                                In your opinion, does the evidence suggest the victim when found was soaking wet?

                                Regards, Jon S.

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