Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[FISHY1118]

Thank Jeff . Also to all whos post were very informative, its been great to bounce ideas and theories with you . ive always maintained the key to solving the mystery to jack the ripper murders is Mitre Square.For me the most important aspect is the time needed to commit all the injuries to eddows, i just cant see it being accomplished, some doctors say 5mins is enough some say in similar case i.e chapman 15 is required. just like the best marksman over the past 50 or so years were never able to replicate lee harvey Oswald shots that killed jfk id pay good money to see if a medical man or anyone for that matter could do what jack did to eddows in the dark in 5 even 10 mins. im a bit surprised no ones even tried , maybe they already know the answer.

[FISHY1118]

im not suggesting another murder , a controlled experiment more like

[FISHY1118]

]Thank Jeff . Also to all whos post were very informative, its been great to bounce ideas and theories with you . ive always maintained the key to solving the mystery to jack the ripper murders is Mitre Square.For me the most important aspect is the time needed to commit all the injuries to eddows, i just cant see it being accomplished, some doctors say 5mins is enough some say in similar case i.e chapman 15 is required. just like the best marksman over the past 50 or so years were never able to replicate lee harvey Oswald shots that killed jfk id pay good money to see if a medical man or anyone for that matter could do what jack did to eddows in the dark in 5 even 10 mins. im a bit surprised no ones even tried , maybe they already know the answer.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;n711602]

Everyone must be in the right place at the right time for it to work. Like I originally said, it's like it would have to be rehearsed - obviously it wasn't, it's just so tight it's unlikely for the movements of three people (Watkins, Harvey, Lawende) to have been coordinated so loosely to allow the killer to slip between them all, commit murder, and escape. If any one of them was out a little he might have been caught.

Truer words have not been spoken. This almost has to be orchestrated for it to work, and I don't particularly trust something to a random proposition when the recitation of events seems to have uncannily coincidental movements made by the key players in the stories. One enters, one exists...like this stage can only sustain a single character at a time.

[Trevor Marriott]

The Square was City property, Harvey was a Met. constable.

This is Harvey's beat:
My beat is from Bevis Marks to Duke Street into Little Duke Street to Houndsditch From Houndsditch back to Duke Street along Duke Street to Church Passage back again into Duke Street to Aldgate From there to Mitre Street back again to Houndsditch up Houndsditch to Little Duke Street again back to Houndsditch to Goring Street up Goring Street to Bevis Marks to where I started.

Harvey told the inquest the time when he came into Duke St., not the passage specifically.
At 20 to 2 on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church Passage as far as Mitre Square I saw no one I heard no cry or noise

Time Inquest report on Pc Harvey

By Juryman
"His beat took him down Church Passage to the end. He was there three or four minutes before he heard the whistle. It was then 18 0r 29 minute to 2`o clock"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Fishy,



Well, we know nobody heard anything, and we know he did all that in a very limited amount of time. We also know he did far worse than with Chapman, he mangled the uterus (I think he only took away 2/3rds of it) and made a mess with the faeces, etc. But Mitre Square was dark, and Chapman's murder had the morning light coming up, and so, a messier crime scene. And 1:33 is probably the earliest he could have entered, Levy's estimate was a sighting at 1:33, and that clock and PC Watkin's clock could easily differ by a minute or two. It's pushing things to the minimum time to enter, but it is in the time window that is consistent with the evidence. Later works as we have contemporary medical opinion of 5 minutes required, and modern estimates suggest even less. We have events that could trigger his exit occurring at times that would allow him to exit without being spotted by PC Watkins. We've got testimony that possibly places Eddowes at the entrance of Church Passage before the crime needs to have occurred, and testimony that indicates that couple wasn't there at a time when the murder had to have occurred, and we have testimony that indicates they weren't hanging out in that spot for long, but were there at the time PC Watkins was just patrolling Mitre Square the beat before the murder.

To be honest, from the contributions of everyone during these discussions, I'm impressed by how much we do have. I know it's not definitive, but as we put all the various statements and sources together, there's nothing obviously wrong with the most popular suggestion, which is that the Church Passage couple was Eddowes and JtR, and she was killed shortly after PC Watkin's left Mitre Square and JtR fled a few minutes before he returned. Whether that was before or because of PC Harvey is open for speculation as Morris could have opened the door before PC Harvey arrives (and that would negate any need to explain why PC Harvey doesn't see JtR in the corner, though that too can be explained by the impairment of his vision due to the gas lamp).

It's not proof, though, but the evidence we have is consistent with that. To throw it out as the best hypothesis we have in order to substitute in a hypothesis for which there is no supporting evidence would be uncalled for under the circumstances. I would suggest that this is probably our "best" explanation, and that others are just speculations on what the alternative might be should the best hypothesis be, in truth, wrong. (note, the best explanation is not always correct, it's best only in the sense that it best fits all the data - but if the data is wrong, as in the tentative identification was in error, that means the couple wasn't Eddowes and JtR, and that would pull the legs out from this explanation. Problem is, there's no way for us to know if that identification was or was not correct.)

- Jeff

Lets not get too carried away with these timings. We can only work with what the witnesses said in their statements, and inquest testimony. It is wrong to keep suggesting that the clocks were slow or fast as were the watches in order to make the times fit a persons theory. Theyt may well have been but we dont know

As I have said before the couple seen at the entrance to the Square were seen at 1.35am. They were seen talking and standing still. They could not have entered the square at that time as some suggest when calculating times thereafter. So they might have not left that location until 1.36/1.37.1.38 allowing for a slow walk to the murder spot taking at most 1 minute.

That would mean that based on each of the aforementioned times they would have arrived at the murder spot at either 1.37.1.38.1.39

Now taking Pc Harveys times in to account Time Inquest report on Pc Harvey

By Juryman
"His beat took him down Church Passage to the end. He was there three or four minutes before he heard the whistle. It was then 18 0r 19 minute to 2`o clock

in his inquest testimony he states "At 20 to 2 on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church Passage as far as Mitre Square I saw no one I heard no cry or noise, when I got to Aldgate returning to Duke St I heard a whistle blown and saw the witness Morris with a lamp"

Now to me that suggests he had gone down Church passage and had then left at about 1.41.42. It could have been that much later, because he had turned and walked back to Aldgate. If his inquest testimony is correct then he as likely as not disturbed the killer on his first pass, who then made good his escape

So going back to the original times based on the couple arriving at the murder location at 1.37am the killer had only 4 minutes with the victim. if the time was 1.38 then he had 3 mins with the victims and if it were as late as 1.39am he only had two minutes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

Not a lot of time is it , im seem to recall the chapter ''medical experts'' where some medical men would disagree that was enough time to complete Eddows injuries.

[FISHY1118]

''To work in such an intricate manner and to remove the kidney carefully and the uterus without damaging the surrounding tissue with a six inch knife would be very difficult.in the time the perpetrator had with their heightened levels of awareness and the prospect of being caught makes this even more difficult. the emphasis is on carefully because only a person with an expert knowledge of anatomy would be able to remove the organs in the manner described and would find it very difficult if not impossible in almost total darkness'' . Phillip Harrison , Bedford Hospital Mortuary 6000 post mortems. on Eddows murder and mutilations.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Trevor,

Lets not get too carried away with these timings. We can only work with what the witnesses said in their statements, and inquest testimony. It is wrong to keep suggesting that the clocks were slow or fast as were the watches in order to make the times fit a persons theory. Theyt may well have been but we dont know

We have to also recognize the limitations of eye-witness testimony though, and always consider the margin of error. I'm not suggesting one should make it fit, rather, that we have to recognize that two clocks will most likely give different times, so it's recognizing that the times given by two witnesses are not directly comparable. Suggesting a couple minutes as a range is just to acknowledge that variability.

As I have said before the couple seen at the entrance to the Square were seen at 1.35am. They were seen talking and standing still. They could not have entered the square at that time as some suggest when calculating times thereafter. So they might have not left that location until 1.36/1.37.1.38 allowing for a slow walk to the murder spot taking at most 1 minute.

Again, 1:35 is the time given by Lawende. Levey gives 1:33-1:34. Once again, we see variation simply because two sources are consulted. So, even ignoring the clock synchronization issues, we've got a 2 minute spread to consider.

At an average walking speed it would take 30 seconds. At the regulation pace of a PC on his beat, 45 seconds.

That would mean that based on each of the aforementioned times they would have arrived at the murder spot at either 1.37.1.38.1.39

Yes, they might have hung around for a few more minutes, until it was impossible for them to be Eddowes and JtR, but as we have no further sightings of them, there's no evidence for that. If it was Eddowes and JtR though (and that's also a possibility), then they had to have gotten to the crime scene earlier, which they could have if they didn't wait those minutes until it is impossible for them to get there (and if it was Eddowes and JtR they clearly didn't wait those hypothetical extra minutes). There's nothing in the testimony that rules out, for example, that they left the location very soon after Lawende and company passed them at 1:33 (Levy's time rather than Lawende's estimate of the time), and required only 30 seconds to get to the murder site (average walking speed), starting everything 3 min 30 seconds earlier. It would help if we knew what time PC Harvey's clock said when the club clock read 1:30 and what PC Watkin's clock said as well, but we don't know. There would most likely be some discrepancy, and all it would take is for the club clock to be a bit fast. If we know those relative times, that would be a huge benefit and source of information. Sadly, we don't.

Now taking Pc Harveys times in to account Time Inquest report on Pc Harvey

By Juryman
"His beat took him down Church Passage to the end. He was there three or four minutes before he heard the whistle. It was then 18 0r 19 minute to 2`o clock

in his inquest testimony he states "At 20 to 2 on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church Passage as far as Mitre Square I saw no one I heard no cry or noise, when I got to Aldgate returning to Duke St I heard a whistle blown and saw the witness Morris with a lamp"

Now to me that suggests he had gone down Church passage and had then left at about 1.41.42. It could have been that much later, because he had turned and walked back to Aldgate. If his inquest testimony is correct then he as likely as not disturbed the killer on his first pass, who then made good his escape

Yes, I think there is a fair chance that PC Harvey could have disturbed JtR at the scene. Again, Morris appears to have opened the door around the same time, so if Morris opens the door first, then JtR could have fled moments before PC Harvey patrols Church Passage, but it's more or less the same thing. From the simulations I've run based upon PC Harvey's testimony of his beat and patrol time, and when he passed the post office at 1:28, it does place him in Church Passage between 1:40 and 1:41 (according to PC Watkin's information - so either that's considered close enough to be accurate, or maybe that means that PC Harvey's clock reads a minute fast compared to PC Watkin's clock)

So going back to the original times based on the couple arriving at the murder location at 1.37am the killer had only 4 minutes with the victim. if the time was 1.38 then he had 3 mins with the victims and if it were as late as 1.39am he only had two minutes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Again, that 1:37 is only considering the latest estimate of the time given by Lawende, and adding 2 minutes to that as well, one of which is unnecessary if we're trying to work out the earliest (there's nothing in the evidence to say the couple didn't immediately head down Church Passage after Lawende and company passed after all, so the earliest they could have gone was immediately after). Also, the distance would not take a minute, but 30 seconds at an average walking speed, less if they "hurried down" and a bit more if they walked slower, but no more than 45 seconds. And Levy gives the time as 1:33, so based upon the testimony, the earliest is about 1:33:30, almost doubling the 4 minutes (7 minutes 30 seconds). Which is less than the 5 minutes estimated by the doctors at the time.

But turning that time 1:33:30 into 7 min 30 seconds, or 1:37 into 4 minutes, is based upon the assumption that the club clock, combined with Levy's estimation of 3 minutes (or Lawende's 5) corresponds to the clock reading and estimated times given by PC Harvey. Recognizing the margins of error, though, means it could easily be significantly longer, easily 2 or 3 minutes longer (for example, if the club clock is fast by 5 minutes, then they were spotted at 1:28 - 1:30 - I'm not pushing for that, I'm just saying we have to acknowledge the error that these values will contain).

But yes, if the couple is not Eddowes and JtR then they never went into Mitre Square (or they would have interrupted JtR and found Eddowes). But given the testimonies we have, even without allowing the clocks to differ, there is enough time for the murder. That means the evidence doesn't preclude them from being Eddowes and JtR, so we can't rule that out. The evidence also doesn't preclude making them not Eddowes and JtR either, meaning they don't have to be Eddowes and JtR, but they could be. And right now, we have no other candidate couples. But given how little time was available, the fact that the Church Passage couple cannot be excluded is quite remarkable because of course, if that was Eddowes with JtR, and the testimony is reasonably accurate, then the evidence should not be able to exclude them.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Question, why do you supposed the doctors during the time of the ripper murders dont describe the injuries and the way in which they were inflicted as Phillip Harrison has. after all a human body was the same in 1888 as 2019 the last time i checked.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,



We have to also recognize the limitations of eye-witness testimony though, and always consider the margin of error. I'm not suggesting one should make it fit, rather, that we have to recognize that two clocks will most likely give different times, so it's recognizing that the times given by two witnesses are not directly comparable. Suggesting a couple minutes as a range is just to acknowledge that variability.



Again, 1:35 is the time given by Lawende. Levey gives 1:33-1:34. Once again, we see variation simply because two sources are consulted. So, even ignoring the clock synchronization issues, we've got a 2 minute spread to consider.

At an average walking speed it would take 30 seconds. At the regulation pace of a PC on his beat, 45 seconds.



Yes, they might have hung around for a few more minutes, until it was impossible for them to be Eddowes and JtR, but as we have no further sightings of them, there's no evidence for that. If it was Eddowes and JtR though (and that's also a possibility), then they had to have gotten to the crime scene earlier, which they could have if they didn't wait those minutes until it is impossible for them to get there (and if it was Eddowes and JtR they clearly didn't wait those hypothetical extra minutes). There's nothing in the testimony that rules out, for example, that they left the location very soon after Lawende and company passed them at 1:33 (Levy's time rather than Lawende's estimate of the time), and required only 30 seconds to get to the murder site (average walking speed), starting everything 3 min 30 seconds earlier. It would help if we knew what time PC Harvey's clock said when the club clock read 1:30 and what PC Watkin's clock said as well, but we don't know. There would most likely be some discrepancy, and all it would take is for the club clock to be a bit fast. If we know those relative times, that would be a huge benefit and source of information. Sadly, we don't.



Yes, I think there is a fair chance that PC Harvey could have disturbed JtR at the scene. Again, Morris appears to have opened the door around the same time, so if Morris opens the door first, then JtR could have fled moments before PC Harvey patrols Church Passage, but it's more or less the same thing. From the simulations I've run based upon PC Harvey's testimony of his beat and patrol time, and when he passed the post office at 1:28, it does place him in Church Passage between 1:40 and 1:41 (according to PC Watkin's information - so either that's considered close enough to be accurate, or maybe that means that PC Harvey's clock reads a minute fast compared to PC Watkin's clock)



Again, that 1:37 is only considering the latest estimate of the time given by Lawende, and adding 2 minutes to that as well, one of which is unnecessary if we're trying to work out the earliest (there's nothing in the evidence to say the couple didn't immediately head down Church Passage after Lawende and company passed after all, so the earliest they could have gone was immediately after). Also, the distance would not take a minute, but 30 seconds at an average walking speed, less if they "hurried down" and a bit more if they walked slower, but no more than 45 seconds. And Levy gives the time as 1:33, so based upon the testimony, the earliest is about 1:33:30, almost doubling the 4 minutes (7 minutes 30 seconds). Which is less than the 5 minutes estimated by the doctors at the time.

But turning that time 1:33:30 into 7 min 30 seconds, or 1:37 into 4 minutes, is based upon the assumption that the club clock, combined with Levy's estimation of 3 minutes (or Lawende's 5) corresponds to the clock reading and estimated times given by PC Harvey. Recognizing the margins of error, though, means it could easily be significantly longer, easily 2 or 3 minutes longer (for example, if the club clock is fast by 5 minutes, then they were spotted at 1:28 - 1:30 - I'm not pushing for that, I'm just saying we have to acknowledge the error that these values will contain).

But yes, if the couple is not Eddowes and JtR then they never went into Mitre Square (or they would have interrupted JtR and found Eddowes). But given the testimonies we have, even without allowing the clocks to differ, there is enough time for the murder. That means the evidence doesn't preclude them from being Eddowes and JtR, so we can't rule that out. The evidence also doesn't preclude making them not Eddowes and JtR either, meaning they don't have to be Eddowes and JtR, but they could be. And right now, we have no other candidate couples. But given how little time was available, the fact that the Church Passage couple cannot be excluded is quite remarkable because of course, if that was Eddowes with JtR, and the testimony is reasonably accurate, then the evidence should not be able to exclude them.

- Jeff

I am not suggesting that there may not have been discrepancies with the various time pieces mentioned. But there has to be a start and end time in all of this to work on. You cannot keep saying it might have been this or it might have been that, because in the grand scheme of things the timings are crucial with regard to trying to ascertain how much time the killer did really have with Eddowes, and was that time sufficient to do all the he is purported to have done to her and so we have to work with the times as given by the witnesses as best we can.

Even if the club clock was fast or slow there is no telling how long the couple stood at that spot before going into the square

I have walked the route from Church Passage to the murder spot several times and at a slow ambling pace it takes just under 1 minute

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Trevor,

I am not suggesting that there may not have been discrepancies with the various time pieces mentioned. But there has to be a start and end time in all of this to work on. You cannot keep saying it might have been this or it might have been that, because in the grand scheme of things the timings are crucial with regard to trying to ascertain how much time the killer did really have with Eddowes, and was that time sufficient to do all the he is purported to have done to her and so we have to work with the times as given by the witnesses as best we can.

Yes, but when you choose 1:35 and say they might have waited a minute, and might have walked at a slow ambling pace, I'm just pointing out those mights, stated or implied, have valid alternatives in the evidence. We have to consider the ranges of times, and Levy gives us 1:33, and an average walking speed gives us a 30 second trip in, and nowhere does the evidence say they waited any amount of time. So I'm just working with the range of values we have and the evidence indicates that the time range covered overlaps with opportunity for them to be Eddowes and JtR. Even the 1:35 could be them, only just, as then it does require an immediate departure and at least an average walking speed. Other assumptions can make that not work (waiting around, slow walking speed), but those are just different versions of "they might have ...". The idea is to see if it was possible, under reasonable assumptions, and leaving after Lawende and Levy pass at an average walking speed is not unreasonable, and it makes it just possible, so all of the sighting times fall in a time window that makes it possible (Levy's being the earliest obviously makes it easier).

Again, I'm not saying this proves they were, just saying the evidence that we have does not prove they were not.

Even if the club clock was fast or slow there is no telling how long the couple stood at that spot before going into the square

The difference in the clocks is unfortunately not something we have, but it's crucial information that would really help. See, if the club clock was fast relative to the others it increases the time available for the Church Passage couple, which would increase confidence that was Eddowes and JtR but if the club clock was slow, that reduces the time available, making less likely they are Eddowes and JtR. Chances are there's some discrepancy, and 1/2 the time that would be in favour of one interpretation and 1/2 the other.

When trying to decide if it could be Eddowes and JtR, there's a good chance that there could be even more time is just recognizing that (and again, it's just acknowledging that if it were Eddowes and JtR, then it might not have been quite as tight as the stated times indicate because of the clock difference). I'm not suggesting the club clock was fast, only that when considering what the time window we should be considering will have one end of it that includes this. The other end will have the club clock slow, and that end of the time window would be in favour of it not being Eddowes and JtR. Not knowing what the sychronization is means we have to consider either direction as possible, and one of those possibilities allows for it to be Eddowes and JtR, so the evidence, particularly when taking in margins of error, mean it is possible.

I have walked the route from Church Passage to the murder spot several times and at a slow ambling pace it takes just under 1 minute

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well, I'm sure one can make the journey in a minute, but at a pace faster than a slow ambling one, one can make it in less time too. We don't know they walked at a slow ambling pace, but I suppose they might have - but they might not have too.

Anyway, I agree that there are options that are reasonable choices that can make the Church Passage Couple not be Eddowes and JtR, but because there are reasonable options that allow for it, that just means the evidence cannot rule them out. And given the very small time window there is to work with, it's a pretty big coincidence that with only a tiny window of opportunity, a couple at an entrance to Mitre Square, tentatively identified as Eddowes and JtR, who are not there after the murder, and yet they are not Eddowes and JtR. It's possible, of course, I just think that's a pretty small target of time to hit by chance.


I guess what I'm trying to say, and perhaps am not being very clear, is that while the evidence doesn't prove it was Eddowes and JtR, anyone who claims it was not them is drawing an invalid conclusion. The evidence keeps open the possibility that it was.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

We don't know when that couple arrived in that location. From Lawende's description they had been there a bit (close, she's got her hand on the man's chest, etc). They could easily have been there 5 or 10 minutes, and saw PC Watkins go by...

Hi Jeff.

My point still remains. The Lawende couple are at the Duke street end of Church Passage, which is a good 85 feet from the Mitre Square end.
How could they see anyone in the square?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,



Yes, but when you choose 1:35 and say they might have waited a minute, and might have walked at a slow ambling pace, I'm just pointing out those mights, stated or implied, have valid alternatives in the evidence. We have to consider the ranges of times, and Levy gives us 1:33, and an average walking speed gives us a 30 second trip in, and nowhere does the evidence say they waited any amount of time. So I'm just working with the range of values we have and the evidence indicates that the time range covered overlaps with opportunity for them to be Eddowes and JtR. Even the 1:35 could be them, only just, as then it does require an immediate departure and at least an average walking speed. Other assumptions can make that not work (waiting around, slow walking speed), but those are just different versions of "they might have ...". The idea is to see if it was possible, under reasonable assumptions, and leaving after Lawende and Levy pass at an average walking speed is not unreasonable, and it makes it just possible, so all of the sighting times fall in a time window that makes it possible (Levy's being the earliest obviously makes it easier).

Again, I'm not saying this proves they were, just saying the evidence that we have does not prove they were not.


The difference in the clocks is unfortunately not something we have, but it's crucial information that would really help. See, if the club clock was fast relative to the others it increases the time available for the Church Passage couple, which would increase confidence that was Eddowes and JtR but if the club clock was slow, that reduces the time available, making less likely they are Eddowes and JtR. Chances are there's some discrepancy, and 1/2 the time that would be in favour of one interpretation and 1/2 the other.

When trying to decide if it could be Eddowes and JtR, there's a good chance that there could be even more time is just recognizing that (and again, it's just acknowledging that if it were Eddowes and JtR, then it might not have been quite as tight as the stated times indicate because of the clock difference). I'm not suggesting the club clock was fast, only that when considering what the time window we should be considering will have one end of it that includes this. The other end will have the club clock slow, and that end of the time window would be in favour of it not being Eddowes and JtR. Not knowing what the sychronization is means we have to consider either direction as possible, and one of those possibilities allows for it to be Eddowes and JtR, so the evidence, particularly when taking in margins of error, mean it is possible.



Well, I'm sure one can make the journey in a minute, but at a pace faster than a slow ambling one, one can make it in less time too. We don't know they walked at a slow ambling pace, but I suppose they might have - but they might not have too.

Anyway, I agree that there are options that are reasonable choices that can make the Church Passage Couple not be Eddowes and JtR, but because there are reasonable options that allow for it, that just means the evidence cannot rule them out. And given the very small time window there is to work with, it's a pretty big coincidence that with only a tiny window of opportunity, a couple at an entrance to Mitre Square, tentatively identified as Eddowes and JtR, who are not there after the murder, and yet they are not Eddowes and JtR. It's possible, of course, I just think that's a pretty small target of time to hit by chance.


I guess what I'm trying to say, and perhaps am not being very clear, is that while the evidence doesn't prove it was Eddowes and JtR, anyone who claims it was not them is drawing an invalid conclusion. The evidence keeps open the possibility that it was.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff
You cant use 1.35am as a start time, because they had not gone into the square at that time so you have to consider 1.36/37 or as late at 1.38 for them to move towards the square.

Lawende states "they left to go out at 1.30am. and we left the house about 5 mins later"

He goes onto say "I fix the time by the club clock and my own watch at 1.30am"

So in effect two timepieces were in sync with each other

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff
You cant use 1.35am as a start time, because they had not gone into the square at that time so you have to consider 1.36/37 or as late at 1.38 for them to move towards the square.

Lawende states "they left to go out at 1.30am. and we left the house about 5 mins later"

He goes onto say "I fix the time by the club clock and my own watch at 1.30am"

So in effect two timepieces were in sync with each other

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

But that doesn't sync his watches/clocks with the Post Office clock and/or PC Watkin's clock. And his 5 minutes was an estimate of how long they waited, which Levy estimated as being 3 minutes. And if the Couple headed up the passage as soon as Lawende et al passed them, then they can start their journey effectively at that time. That is the earliest possible time that fits the evidence. I'm not saying it's a fact they did that, only that it is the starting point for any consideration of when they could have entered. Ok, now the very latest Eddowes and JtR need to be in the corner would be (technically) 1:38:30 (that gives 5 minutes for the murder and 30 seconds ave walking speed to exit back out Church Passage before PC Watkins shows up; people testify nobody came out into St. James Place, and by this latest time PC Watkins is in Mitre Street, so that is not available for escape). That "technically possible time", however, seems pushing it to me, as I agree with you that JtR would leave when PC Harvey patrols Church Passage at 1:41-1:42. So 5 minutes before the latter of those times I would argue is the latest time of entry and get to the corner would be 1:37. So that means we have to consider the time window between 1:33:30 and 1:37 as the time at which Eddowes and JtR arrive at the crime scene. Note, I'm precluding the earlier times from when PC Watkins patrolled and exited Mitre Square (so from 1:32 - 1:33 because we know it was bucketing down with rain, and Eddowes and JtR would not be going into the square to "conduct business" until the rain passed).

And the Church Passage Couple could get to that corner within that time window whether we use Levy's 1:33 or Lawende's 1:35 as the time of the sighting, even if they did a slow stroll starting 1 minute after Lawende and company passed. Therefore, anyone who states it is a definite fact that the Church Passage Couple is not Eddowes and JtR is wrong - that's an invalid conclusion. At the same time, anyone who states the Church Passage Couple must be Eddowes and JtR is also wrong, because there is nothing in the evidence that definitively proves that.

I'm not trying to state it is a fact they immediately headed into the passage, if it was Eddowes and JtR, that's when the rain stopped according to Lawende and Levy, so why would they wait?). But we don't know that information (that the couple immediately left, as Lawende and Levy did not look back). And I'm not stating as a fact the clocks were definitely out of sync, because we don't know that either. What I'm doing is covering all the bases, and seeing what is possible. But if we want to say "the clocks might have been all in sync, and Lowende might be the one with the right time, and they might have lingered a minute, and they might have walked at a very slow pace", then even then, with all factors against us, they still can get to the crime scene at 1:37, which is all they have to do in order for JtR to have the estimated 5 minutes required for the murder before he flees when PC Harvey arrives.

- Jeff