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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Dr. G. W. Sequeira, surgeon,On the morning of Sept. 30 I was called to Mitre-square, and I arrived at five minutes to two o'clock, being the first medical man on the scene of the murder. I saw the position of the body.The death must have been instantaneous after the severance of the windpipe and the blood-vessels. [Coroner] How long do you believe life had been extinct when you arrived? - Very few minutes - probably not more than a quarter of an hour..... That makes it 1.40 if the good dr sequira is correct , now were down to 4 minutes . indeed time is very important where the murder of Eddows is concerned

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    • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
      Dr. G. W. Sequeira, surgeon,On the morning of Sept. 30 I was called to Mitre-square, and I arrived at five minutes to two o'clock, being the first medical man on the scene of the murder. I saw the position of the body.The death must have been instantaneous after the severance of the windpipe and the blood-vessels. [Coroner] How long do you believe life had been extinct when you arrived? - Very few minutes - probably not more than a quarter of an hour..... That makes it 1.40 if the good dr sequira is correct , now were down to 4 minutes . indeed time is very important where the murder of Eddows is concerned
      Hi Fishy,

      Well, estimation of time of death is still very unreliable, even when taking internal body temperature (from the liver, etc). While the medical experts at the time should certainly be considered, when it comes to estimating time of death, just ignore it other than maybe something vague like "fairly recently". It's a guess, and it's one that proper studies of estimating time of death have shown to be a very unreliable one at that. We know it was between 1:30 and 1:44 by PC Watkin's clock. That's a pretty narrow time window to begin with.

      - Jeff

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      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

        You may be right Harry, although she used "Mary Kelly" and "Jane Kelly" respectively,..why not use Catharine or Kate Kelly
        Perhaps because she could have been known as Catherine/Kate Kelly under common law, and if you're going to use an alias, it's probably best not to pick a name by which you might be identified. Incidentally, she specifically used the name "Mary Ann Kelly", which is a fact often overlooked by those who want to make a link to MJK.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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        • What we know by the timings that people seem to accept is that its possible that Kates killer had less than 10 minutes to first get her into the square, subdue her virtually silently in near darkness, mutilate her, cut out organs, cut an apron section off and flee.

          Its for that reason I don't believe Lawende saw Kate...the timeline is too tight.
          Michael Richards

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          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            What we know by the timings that people seem to accept is that its possible that Kates killer had less than 10 minutes to first get her into the square, subdue her virtually silently in near darkness, mutilate her, cut out organs, cut an apron section off and flee.

            Its for that reason I don't believe Lawende saw Kate...the timeline is too tight.
            Hi Michael,

            PC Watkin's patrol was only 12-14 minutes long on average but he said that circuit took 14 minutes. It takes about 1 1/2 minutes to patrol Mitre Square (based upon the beat and time to complete the whole thing), so that only leaves 12.5 minutes to work in. The doctor's at the time estimated it required 5 minutes. So even taking Lawende's time of 1:35 for the sighting, add a minute for them to enter the square, that's 1:36, five minutes for the murder, 1:41, and PC Harvey is probably about to patrol Church Passage, and Morris is opening the door while cleaning up, so JtR flees while PC Watkin's is still 3 minutes away on his beat, which means he hasn't even rounded the corner into Mitre Street yet, so JtR could easily flee out into Mitre Street and north, or out through St. James Place (but there's testimony that nobody was seen coming through that way, so looks more like Mitre Street). So basically, Lawende's 1:35 looks like it works fine.

            And, if Levy's estimate of 3-4 minutes is the accurate one, that gives even more time to work with, particularly if the club clock was a bit fast (relative to PC Watkin's clock that he used to check his time).

            It's tight, yes, but it is no matter what one does because one has to fit the 6 minutes (minute to get into the square + 5 for the murder) into a 12.5 minute window. (note, some moder medical experts have said it would only require 2-3 minutes, so now we have to fit a 3-4 minute window in, and that makes Lawende's time even easier to work with)

            - Jeff

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            • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
              The cutting to Eddowes face could have been as a result of her trying to avoid the knife ... Trevor this implys that eddows for a second or two put up struggle, if that was the case wound she not have screamed ?
              Not, if he had his hand across her mouth holding her, she could have given off muffled screams which for varying reasons no one was close enough to hear.

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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              • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
                That was Dr Frederick Brown who gave that estimate of 5 mins, taking into account Dr Phillips said he could inflict all the injuries on Chapman in less than 15 mins . Thats a big difference especially as Chapmans injuries were some what less than Eddows .
                I tkink you will find that orginal newspaper quote was only in relation to the murder and mutilations, when he made that quote the post mortem had not been carried out and the organs found to be missing. In the same article Dr Sequeria quotes 3 minutes

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                  Not, if he had his hand across her mouth holding her, she could have given off muffled screams which for varying reasons no one was close enough to hear.
                  So the stabs to Kate's mouth were straight through the killer's hand?

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                  • HI JEFF . 1.37 is the in my opinion the earliest [unless they ran ,highly unlikely] they arrived at the spot she was murdered given the fact shes has to walk from duke st through church passage.Shes dead at 1.38. to 1.43.5... 5 and half min, he needs at least 30 sec to escape from mitre square via mitre st before watkins enter the square.[Coroner] How long do you believe life had been extinct when you arrived? - Very few minutes - probably not more than a quarter of an hour. i wouldn't like to be the one to tell Dr. G. W. Sequeira, his time of deaths are very unreliable.

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                    • Have to agree on Joshua Rogan on that one .

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                      • Day 4, Wednesday, September 19, 1888 . The Coroner: Can you give any idea how long it would take to perform the incisions found on the body?
                        Dr. Phillips: I think I can guide you by saying that I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in a deliberate way, such as would fall to the duties of a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour. .... i think you will find this was stated at the inquest not a newspaper quote , and was the first time he said it . as Dr. G. W. Sequeira, is not reported as being at the inquest and he certainly didn't say it there , and i dont do unofficial newspaper reports when it comes to trying to solve who jack the ripper was.

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                        • SAT, SEP 8, 1888
                          c.2:00pm


                          Dr Phillips arrived at the mortuary to conduct the postmortem and found that the body had already been stripped, partially washed, and laid on the table waiting for him. The clothes were tossed into a corner except for the neckerchief which was still around the neck. (The Clerk to the Parish Guardians ordered two nurses, Mary Simonds and Francis Wright, to lay out the body. This was done without police consent.)92
                          click [here] for sketch of injuries.
                          1. Bruise over the right temple (old); 2 man's thumb-sized bruises on top forepart of chest (old); 3 scratches below the lower left jaw, 1 1/2"-2" below left ear lobe, going in opposite direction of throat wounds (recent); Bruise on right cheek -recent; Bruise corresponding with the scratches -recent; Abrasion on head of proximal phalanx of ring finger; Marks of rings on same finger; Upper eyelid bruised; Limbs very stiff, but left side more stiff than right side; Bruise on middle part of bone of right hand; Scar on left of frontal bone (old); Fingers of left hand partly closed; Little food in stomach; No sign of fluid; No sign of alcohol consumption; Lungs diseased; Brain membranes diseased; Signs of deprivation; Front teeth perfect on top and bottom as far as the first molar; The shortest throat incision ran from the front of the throat and terminated on the right side between the lower jaw and the breast bone; The longest throat incision completely encircled the throat, running along the line of the jaw; The incisions ran from victim's left to right; 2 clean and distinct cuts on the left side of the spine which were parallel to each other and were 1/2" apart; Missing were the womb, upper part of vagina, greater part of bladder, and part of the belly wall that included the navel. IM SURE THE POST MORTEM HAD BEEN CARRIED OUT.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
                            Day 4, Wednesday, September 19, 1888 . The Coroner: Can you give any idea how long it would take to perform the incisions found on the body?
                            Dr. Phillips: I think I can guide you by saying that I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in a deliberate way, such as would fall to the duties of a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour. .... i think you will find this was stated at the inquest not a newspaper quote , and was the first time he said it . as Dr. G. W. Sequeira, is not reported as being at the inquest and he certainly didn't say it there , and i dont do unofficial newspaper reports when it comes to trying to solve who jack the ripper was.
                            Of course Dr. Sequeira wouldn't attend the Chapman inquest. Which is what you quoted from. He was, however, present at the Eddowes inquest the following month.

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                            • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
                              HI JEFF . 1.37 is the in my opinion the earliest [unless they ran ,highly unlikely] they arrived at the spot she was murdered given the fact shes has to walk from duke st through church passage.Shes dead at 1.38. to 1.43.5... 5 and half min, he needs at least 30 sec to escape from mitre square via mitre st before watkins enter the square.[Coroner] How long do you believe life had been extinct when you arrived? - Very few minutes - probably not more than a quarter of an hour. i wouldn't like to be the one to tell Dr. G. W. Sequeira, his time of deaths are very unreliable.
                              Hi Fishy,

                              Well, it's about 165 feet from Duke Street to the crime scene. At an average walking speed that would take about 35 seconds, and the slower pace of a patrolling PC, about 45 seconds. And if Levy's 3 minutes is the earliest time we have for the sighting, so that would mean the earliest should be something like 1:34 wouldn't it be?

                              And if Dr. Sequeira had access to the research that was done since then, his opinion would have factored in a lot more and have been different. They didn't have access to the information, so they did the best they could. Turns out, the best you can do with the limited information they had available is not reliable. It's not his fault, nor incompetence on his part, it's the lack of the necessary information.

                              - Jeff

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                                So the stabs to Kate's mouth were straight through the killer's hand?
                                Were they not cuts, not stab wounds ? I dont see any evidence of the face being stabbed

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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