Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Curious Cat]

The entrance Curious Cat is speaking about was at #75 Leadenhall Street. It was a trunk wharehouse owned by John Pound. I have included all properties (in green) listed as owned by John Pound in the area. Pound was a luggage and leather goods manufacturer. He was Sheriff of London 1885-86 and Lord Mayor in 1904. He also was the treasurer to the Aldgate Ward Schools which was located at #2, Mitre Street.

[see arches on Leadenhall and into a courtyard at #75 on Goads map. The courtyard backs to #36 Mitre Street]

There was a report of blood on the door of #36 Mitre Street after the Eddowes murder. There was also a report of a man with blood splashes on his face and collar that bumped into another man while hurrying through Mitre Square at 10 a.m on the morning Mary Kelly was later found murdered.

John Pound was partners with a man I have spoken of in the past named Franklin Sydney King. They started an office lease company in Billiter street and Billiter Square not far from this Leadenhall address. King had offices there. King also had an office in Castle Alley. In fact, his doorstep was where Alice McKenzie was found murdered in 1889. FS King's childhood home and business offices of his father, David S. King was at #5, Mitre Street until about 1881 or so. The gate at which Catherine Eddowes was found murdered was the back entrance to #5, Mitre Street. The Kings also had properties in at one time of another at Goulston Court, King Street (St, James Place) and Croydon.

Franklin King died in 1892.

That's interesting.

When/where was that reported?

[Wickerman]

Hi Michael,

PC Watkin's patrol was only 12-14 minutes long on average but he said that circuit took 14 minutes. It takes about 1 1/2 minutes to patrol Mitre Square (based upon the beat and time to complete the whole thing), so that only leaves 12.5 minutes to work in. The doctor's at the time estimated it required 5 minutes. So even taking Lawende's time of 1:35 for the sighting, add a minute for them to enter the square, that's 1:36, five minutes for the murder, 1:41, and PC Harvey is probably about to patrol Church Passage, and Morris is opening the door while cleaning up, so JtR flees while PC Watkin's is still 3 minutes away on his beat, which means he hasn't even rounded the corner into Mitre Street yet, so JtR could easily flee out into Mitre Street and north, or out through St. James Place (but there's testimony that nobody was seen coming through that way, so looks more like Mitre Street). So basically, Lawende's 1:35 looks like it works fine.

And, if Levy's estimate of 3-4 minutes is the accurate one, that gives even more time to work with, particularly if the club clock was a bit fast (relative to PC Watkin's clock that he used to check his time).

It's tight, yes, but it is no matter what one does because one has to fit the 6 minutes (minute to get into the square + 5 for the murder) into a 12.5 minute window. (note, some moder medical experts have said it would only require 2-3 minutes, so now we have to fit a 3-4 minute window in, and that makes Lawende's time even easier to work with)

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

Everyone must be in the right place at the right time for it to work. Like I originally said, it's like it would have to be rehearsed - obviously it wasn't, it's just so tight it's unlikely for the movements of three people (Watkins, Harvey, Lawende) to have been coordinated so loosely to allow the killer to slip between them all, commit murder, and escape. If any one of them was out a little he might have been caught.

Watkins entered the square about 1:30, walked around the square (you suggest for about 1.5 mins?), so leaves the square about 1:32?
Harvey arrives at the end of Church Passage about 1:40? (give or take).
Watkins returns to the square at 1:44.

Much depends on when Harvey really reached the end of Church Passage as it is far more likely his appearance cause the killer to leave, than his departure allowed the killer to begin.
So, the murder is more likely to have occurred between Watkins leaving the square at 1:32? and Harvey arriving at the end of Church Passage about 1:40. From this we deduct the time provided by Lawende - 1:35, plus a minute to walk down the passage and across the square?
Was Eddowes killed between 1:36 and 1:40?

The "St. James Place" couple/people were sighted around 1:30, so if they entered the square as Watkins was leaving we have potentially a murder window from 1:32 to 1:40.
I just think it's more workable.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

Everyone must be in the right place at the right time for it to work. Like I originally said, it's like it would have to be rehearsed - obviously it wasn't, it's just so tight it's unlikely for the movements of three people (Watkins, Harvey, Lawende) to have been coordinated so loosely to allow the killer to slip between them all, commit murder, and escape. If any one of them was out a little he might have been caught.

No matter where Eddowes enters Mitre Square from, it has to be both after PC Watkins patrolled it at 1:30, before he returns at 1:44, and at a time that allows for sufficient time for the murder to have occurred and for JtR to leave. No matter what scenerio one imagines, given PC Harvey at some point patrols Church Passage, and given Morris opens the door, and both of those seem to occur a few minutes before 1:44, it's going to be tight. It was tight, there's very little time available.

It didn't have to be coordinated, as in practiced, but it makes it easier to swallow if one presumes Eddowes and JtR waited for PC Watkins to vacate Mitre Square and entered just after he patrolled it at 1:30ish simply because that removes one "coincidence" aspect because they could then assume they have a bit of time before he returns. Otherwise, one has to suggest that without knowing when a PC might show up again, JtR just "got lucky" and had enough time.

The Church Passage couple is in a location that would allow them to see PC Watkins pass by during his patrol at 1:30, wait a bit (perhaps partly due to the rain), and enter with that time available. So, in a way coordinated in that they entered because PC Watkins has just gone through and they would know, based upon local knowledge, they probably have around 15 minutes (in fact, less as this was a short beat, but I'm not suggesting they knew his specific beat, only that beats tended to be around 15 minutes or longer).

If some other couple enters the square from some other direction, they still have to enter after PC Watkins goes by. Yet other locations do not afford them the opportunity to verify that has happened, so then JtR has to have been lucky.

Watkins entered the square about 1:30, walked around the square (you suggest for about 1.5 mins?), so leaves the square about 1:32?

Shortly before, it would only take 30 seconds to walk from where the couple was spotted to the crime scene (at an average walking speed; 45 seconds for a PC on his beat as they were to walk slower). That means the murder could be commencing at 1:32, and that's 12 minutes until PC Watkin's returns at 1:44, for a murder that was estimated to require 5.

Harvey arrives at the end of Church Passage about 1:40? (give or take).

Around that time is probably a good guess. But he only goes to the end of Church Passage, and that had a gas lamp. That would reduce his vision into the darkness of the corner where the crime occurred. So if JtR hears PC Harvey's approach, he could leave at that point (we're now 8 minutes after the above 1:32, for a 5 minute crime, meaning they could have entered as late as 1:35), and PC Watkins is still 4 minutes away. It's not coordinated by design, but that event could be what triggered JtR to flee and not be spotted. And if that was the case, he had to have entered about 5 minutes or so earlier because he had to complete the murder, again, pushing the entrance time back to somewhere around 1:35ish.

Note, we also know Morris indicates he had opened the door while cleaning up a few minutes before Watkins called upon him, so that too could have occurred around 1:40ish, meaning JtR might have fled at that point (which means the trigger is which ever came first, PC Harvey or the door opening).

Watkins returns to the square at 1:44.

Much depends on when Harvey really reached the end of Church Passage as it is far more likely his appearance cause the killer to leave, than his departure allowed the killer to begin.
So, the murder is more likely to have occurred between Watkins leaving the square at 1:32? and Harvey arriving at the end of Church Passage about 1:40. From this we deduct the time provided by Lawende - 1:35, plus a minute to walk down the passage and across the square?

Or Levy's 3 minutes. And, this is subject to concerns about the clock that Lawende used to judge the time (at the club) and PC Watkin's clock are synchronized, which they most certainly would not be. And, when people read clocks, if the hands showed somethign like 1:28 at the club, that's going to be considered 1:30 (but a PC would read it as 1:28 when recording a crime because of the difference in the importance of that information). Once one takes into account the margin of error associated with the time of the sighting, all one is left with is that the sighting is in the right "range" of times.

Was Eddowes killed between 1:36 and 1:40?

I would suggest she was killed somewhere between 1:32 and maybe as late as 1:36 (by PC Watkin's clock as the time piece - not sure how that corresponds to Lawenede's clock since we have a stated range of times for the sighting from 1:33-1:35 when considering both Levy and Lawende, plus the possibility of error arising from how people read clocks near "1:30", and error given the lack of synchronization between the club clock and PC Watkiin's.

The "St. James Place" couple/people were sighted around 1:30, so if they entered the square as Watkins was leaving we have potentially a murder window from 1:32 to 1:40.
I just think it's more workable.

Except none of the reports I've seen mention a couple in St. James Place, just "some people", which doesn't even indicate if there were any women seen, and none of those reports indicate that those people were heading into Mitre Square. They certainly weren't reported "waiting" at the end of the passage to Mitre Square in order to wait out PC Watkins. To me, while it's not impossible of course, this just feels way too much like luck. I do think JtR was lucky in being "triggered" to leave, which is why I'm hesitant to play the luck card a 2nd time, as now he has to have been lucky to enter at the right time too. I think the Church Passage couple can be argued to have entered at the "right time" because they are in a location that affords that possibility.

Again, I'm not saying it has to be Eddowes and JtR that were spotted, but I do think if we start by considering that to be the case, all the events that follow seem fairly easy to explain how JtR had enough time to murder and mutilate her, and why he wasn't there when PC Watkins returns at 1:44.

But that's just my way of thinking.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Dr. G. W. Sequeira, yes he was at the inquest my apologises, however 3mins is not quoted at the inquest ,that was the point i was making.

[FISHY1118]

Where does p.c Harvey specifically say he walked down church passage at 1.40 and but did not enter the square , if that were the case might he not used his bull lantern to look into the square? where was the killer and eddows ?

[FISHY1118]

i agree Jeff, i think st James passage is a no go for the reasons you explained , however i still think 1.37/8 from church st is more like start time for the killler , thats of course it was Eddows and her killer at duke st and they entered church passage to the spot she was killed.

[Wickerman]

It didn't have to be coordinated, as in practiced, but it makes it easier to swallow if one presumes Eddowes and JtR waited for PC Watkins to vacate Mitre Square and entered just after he patrolled it at 1:30ish simply because that removes one "coincidence" aspect because they could then assume they have a bit of time before he returns. Otherwise, one has to suggest that without knowing when a PC might show up again, JtR just "got lucky" and had enough time.

The above point appears to align with the Blenkingsop theory. Given that he saw some people "about 1:30", so if they went down St James Passage, Watkins could be in the square at the time. At least they would have him in sight so they could watch him leave.

The Church Passage couple is in a location that would allow them to see PC Watkins pass by during his patrol at 1:30, wait a bit (perhaps partly due to the rain), and enter with that time available.

This is what I don't grasp. The Church Passage couple are too late to know when Watkins passed through the square 1:30-32?.
At 1:35 they are walking blind into a constables beat with no idea when he will return.
At least the Blenkingsop people are in a position to see Watkins patrol the square, or at least see him leave through Mitre Street.

I know you are not comfortable with him saying "people". Ok, so if it was two men, why didn't Watkins see two men because he was in the square from 1:30 to 1:32, less 30 seconds
Two men, not intent on criminal activity will just walk across the square, and may have been seen by Watkins. Whereas, Eddowes & a client have good cause to pause within St. James Passage and wait for Watkins to leave.

I think it's also well to remember that Blenkingsop was asked about a man & woman. So if Blenkingsop's "people" were not this man and woman and clearly the couple seen by Lawende were not. Then we have another man & woman loose in Mitre Square around the time of the murder.

[JeffHamm]

Where does p.c Harvey specifically say he walked down church passage at 1.40 and but did not enter the square , if that were the case might he not used his bull lantern to look into the square? where was the killer and eddows ?

Hi Fishy,

I forget exactly where that comes up, but I'm pretty sure he does specifically say he patrols Church Passage but does not enter the square somewhere. The square itself wasn't part of his beat, so there would be no reason for him to shine his light around unless he noticed something. Given the light that was in that location, it's also possible he didn't go all the way down the passage, but just part way as he can see the rest due to the lighting (speculation on my part there).

He doesn't give an exact time, rather, he estimates how long between when he heard the whistle blow alerting him to the crime and when he had patrolled Church Passage. He also indicates where in his beat he was at that time. From that people estimate it was around 1:40, and when I worked out the simulation (first post of this thread), based upon his beat and the time it takes him to do a full circuit, that did result in estimating him to be in Church Passage (entering it) around 1:40, and it places him around where he said he was when the whistle blows. But yes, that 1:40 is an estimate, but it is one that fits with other aspects of the testimony that we have.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Where does p.c Harvey specifically say he walked down church passage at 1.40 and but did not enter the square , if that were the case might he not used his bull lantern to look into the square? where was the killer and eddows ?

The Square was City property, Harvey was a Met. constable.

This is Harvey's beat:
My beat is from Bevis Marks to Duke Street into Little Duke Street to Houndsditch From Houndsditch back to Duke Street along Duke Street to Church Passage back again into Duke Street to Aldgate From there to Mitre Street back again to Houndsditch up Houndsditch to Little Duke Street again back to Houndsditch to Goring Street up Goring Street to Bevis Marks to where I started.

Harvey told the inquest the time when he came into Duke St., not the passage specifically.
At 20 to 2 on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church Passage as far as Mitre Square I saw no one I heard no cry or noise

[JeffHamm]

Hi Wickerman,

The above point appears to align with the Blenkingsop theory. Given that he saw some people "about 1:30", so if they went down St James Passage, Watkins could be in the square at the time. At least they would have him in sight so they could watch him leave.

But we don't have anything that says they went through to Mitre Square, only that there were some people about St. James Place. Not even that the people were together. The could have been passing through the square without involving Mitre Square at all. We don't know. It's not impossible that there was a male and female couple who went into Mitre Square from St. James Place, but equally so, it's not impossible there was no male/female couple included in the "some people" statement, and none of them went into Mitre Square. The statements we have are uninformative on that, while the ones we have for Church Passage are clear, it was a man and woman.

This is what I don't grasp. The Church Passage couple are too late to know when Watkins passed through the square 1:30-32?.
At 1:35 they are walking blind into a constables beat with no idea when he will return.
At least the Blenkingsop people are in a position to see Watkins patrol the square, or at least see him leave through Mitre Street.

We don't know when that couple arrived in that location. From Lawende's description they had been there a bit (close, she's got her hand on the man's chest, etc). They could easily have been there 5 or 10 minutes, and saw PC Watkins go by.

And as I say, Lawende's 1:35 could easily be PC Watkin's 1:32 due to the lack of clock synchronization, meaning they would enter very shortly after he patrolled it. Obviously I don't have the two clocks in front of me to compare, what I'm just saying is that the times are now so close to each other that any differences is easily attributed to the sources of error that would be in play.

I know you are not comfortable with him saying "people". Ok, so if it was two men, why didn't Watkins see two men because he was in the square from 1:30 to 1:32, less 30 seconds

Again, saying "some people passed through" in reference to St. James Place does not mean the people were walking together (just there were some people around in the square at 1:30) and passing through St. James Place doesn't mean "and going to Mitre Square", they could pass through by the main thoroughfares of Duke Street to King Street (or vice versa). There's nothing in the statement that specifically indicates any of the people were female, or that any of the people were walking together, or that any of them went into Mitre Square. All we have is that somewhere around 1:30 there were some people in St. James Place. While that doesn't preclude there being a couple who went into Mitre Square, it doesn't necessitate that conclusion either although all of those conditions could be assumed. With the Church Passage couple, we have to conclude they were together, and we have to conclude it was a man and women, and we just have to make the one assumption that they then went into Mitre Square. Both are possible, but one relies on 3 assumptions all being correct, the other only requires one (which is also one of the three the other has to make).

Two men, not intent on criminal activity will just walk across the square, and may have been seen by Watkins. Whereas, Eddowes & a client have good cause to pause within St. James Passage and wait for Watkins to leave.

Yes, I agree that Eddowes and a client would have good reason to pause and wait. Which is, after all, what I've been suggesting the Church Passage couple might have been doing.

I think it's also well to remember that Blenkingsop was asked about a man & woman. So if Blenkingsop's "people" were not this man and woman and clearly the couple seen by Lawende were not. Then we have another man & woman loose in Mitre Square around the time of the murder.

I think Blenkinsop denied seeing a couple, and just said there were some people about and he didn't take much notice. His statement is not all that confident sounding to me. While Lawende and Levy did not think they could identify the man again, and only identified the clothing (as similar to what they recall the woman wearing), they were sure they saw a man and women together in that location in the right time frame (again, given the margin of error we have to allow for the time).

I'm not, and I do want to stress this, saying that the Church Passage couple had to be Eddowes and JtR, but on the balance of probabilities given the evidence we have, they're the "best choice", as other options have far less evidence (in fact, as I've argued, there are no other male/female couples specifically mentioned as close to an entrances to Mitre Square).

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Harvey told the inquest the time when he came into Duke St., not the passage specifically.
At 20 to 2 on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church Passage as far as Mitre Square I saw no one I heard no cry or noise . ... AS FAR AS MITRE SQUARE which make it just maybe his standing under the lamp when he saw nothing and heard nothing .

[FISHY1118]

something to ponder, if p.c harvey was standing where he said he was at 1.40 , and the distance from that spot to to where eddows and the killer were is 15 metres his statement seems unbelievable to me . his a police officer for Christ sake his suppose to notice things, thats what his on his beat for . just saying of course.

[FISHY1118]

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/mitr...14c35e2d0076ff not sure if you guys have seen this before , but its very interesting when discussing mitre square , the night time version is even better

[FISHY1118]

i have my doubts about harvey tho.......At 20 to 2 on Sunday morning I went down Duke Street and down Church Passage as far as Mitre Square. This parts not in his inquest statement.... This part is..... I saw no one I heard no cry or noise. THOUGHTS ?

[JeffHamm]

something to ponder, if p.c harvey was standing where he said he was at 1.40 , and the distance from that spot to to where eddows and the killer were is 15 metres his statement seems unbelievable to me . his a police officer for Christ sake his suppose to notice things, thats what his on his beat for . just saying of course.

Hi Fishy,

There's a map somewhere on this site that shows where the lamps were, and there was one in Church Passage at the Mitre Square end. Now, human vision is based upon two types of light receptors, the rods and the cones. The cones give us good colour vision (there are 3 different sets of them, tuned to different wavelengths, reds, greens, and blues - red-green colour blindness reflects the red and green cones more or less responding similarly, but I digress). The cones, while they differentiate different hues/colours, are much less sensitive to light than are the rods, so they need more light to become active. The rods, which do not care about wavelength so much, produce more "black and white" vision, but require much less light to activate. When it's dark, the cones don't activate much and when there's light, the rods tend to overload and not contribute too much to our vision. If you go from a bright room into a dark room, it takes awhile for our 'eyes to adjust", meaning, for the flooded rods to calm down and start responding to the low levels of light in the dark room. And when we go from a dark room into a light room, we often squint, or the light hurts our eyes as the cones suddenly turn on and the rods ramp up until they flood.

So, when PC Harvey walks up and ends up under, or near, the light source, his rods (night vision) reduces and his cones (day vision) become more active. this makes it very hard to see from a position of light into a position of darkness. Now gas lamps aren't flood lights, so it won't blind him, but given he's right by the source of the light it will have somewhat of an influence on his being able to see into the square simply because of how the eyes and vision works. JtR, on the other hand, is in a position of darkness, his night vision will be fine. When he looks towards the small area illuminated by the gas lamp, his cones will turn on, and his rods reduce a bit, but because he's further from the lamp, it's not as dramatic an effect as it would be for Harvey. And regardless, it means he can see into the lighted area far easier than PC Harvey could see into the dark.

Think about it being inside at night. It's hard to see into the dark areas outside, but if you were sitting in that spot, it would be trivial to see a person inside the house. Light to dark is hard, impairs vision, but dark to light improves. It's not his fault he couldn't see into the square, it's a result of how vision works.

- Jeff