Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Wickerman]

Thanks wick , probably why most Ripperologist will forever be trying to work out what happen at Mitre square due to starting there investigation with a pair of nobodies who were mistaken for Eddows and JTR.

If Lawende had pointed out the Michaelmass daisy pattern then that would have provided substance, but as it is Lawende saw a pile of dirty worn dark clothing. The police knew this was not sufficient, so do I.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

Thanks wick , probably why most Ripperologist will forever be trying to work out what happen at Mitre square due to starting there investigation with a pair of nobodies who were mistaken for Eddows and JTR.

How do you know they were nobodies? I don't know if they were Eddowes and JtR, but even the most conservative reading of the evidence and testimony we have, one that doesn't even allow for margins of error (which clearly there would be), still indicates that the Church Passage Couple are in a position that gets them to the crime scene on time. And that conservative reading of the evidence and data means there is only a 2 minute window of opportunity. Dismissing them despite hitting that narrow window of time seems a bit premature to me. Are you still supporting the idea she was murdered elsewhere and dumped there from a Royal Carriage?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Sam,



Indeed, I thought I was being clear earlier when suggesting the rain stopped as indicating when the "downpour that prevented people from walking about" stopped, rather than meaning to imply it stopped entirely, or, for completeness, to suggest the stars and moon came out in all their glory.

I note that at the crime scene there is a report of some of the blood having run under her and to her right side of her head, and I recall it being described as more "serum" like somewhere (I think it's indicated on the crime scene diagram, but I can't find a copy of that right now). If that recollection is correct, that would be consistent with there being water on the ground, diluting some of the blood and resulting in it spreading, while the bulk of it pools and clots, indicating it was not disturbed by a heavy rain fall. Again, if my recollection of that detail is accurate, that points to the murder happening after the heavy rain. I've had a search for the diagram (the one made at the crime scene of her position) but can't seem to locate it just now. I think that's the one that points to what I'm talking about though.

- Jeff

ah, found it. It doesn't say serum, it says "Fluid Blood", which would still be consistent with what I was getting at - some of the blood gets diulted by the existing rain water and remains fluid, while the bulk of it clots.

[FISHY1118]

What didn't happen was Eddows stood on the spot she was murdered at 1.37am, and in 1 min 30 secs , had her kidney and her uterus removed in the dark.. What im supporting is this didn't happen and nobody's commented on the timelime i posted that describes all the wounds inflicted happen in 5 minutes .Remember work out what didn't happen and then go from there .

[JeffHamm]

Hi Fishy,

What didn't happen was Eddows stood on the spot she was murdered at 1.37am, and in 1 min 30 secs , had her kidney and her uterus removed in the dark.. What im supporting is this didn't happen and nobody's commented on the timelime i posted that describes all the wounds inflicted happen in 5 minutes .Remember work out what didn't happen and then go from there .

Well, where did you get those times for each of the injuries?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Wickerman,

If Lawende had pointed out the Michaelmass daisy pattern then that would have provided substance, but as it is Lawende saw a pile of dirty worn dark clothing. The police knew this was not sufficient, so do I.

I agree. His identification of the clothes is not strong. Had he noticed something more specific, we might have more confidence that it was, or was not, Eddowes and JtR. As such, it's a possible sighting in a possible location. And again, given the rain, it could also just be two random people taking shelter in the passage. I do think there are other tantalizing pointers to it being a genuine sighting, but none of them are definitive. The evidence we have, though, is very suggestive, but one should never get tunnel vision when there are other lines still open.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

By Accident or Design? A Critical Analysis of the Murder... RIGHT HERE . ON THE EDDOWS PAGE

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Wickerman,



I agree. His identification of the clothes is not strong. Had he noticed something more specific, we might have more confidence that it was, or was not, Eddowes and JtR. As such, it's a possible sighting in a possible location. And again, given the rain, it could also just be two random people taking shelter in the passage. I do think there are other tantalizing pointers to it being a genuine sighting, but none of them are definitive. The evidence we have, though, is very suggestive, but one should never get tunnel vision when there are other lines still open.

- Jeff

If this is accepted though Jeff, and we can rely on Watkins estimates, then the margin for error is ridiculously slim. Even if he only takes 5 minutes to do all the mutilations, mark the face, cut the colon and the apron, access the kidney...we still have to get them into the square, have him subdue her...apparently quietly, and kill her with the throat cuts. Its so finely orchestrated with the Lawende sighting its seems unrealistic. Sometimes things just work out, I realize that, but on your supposed 4th public kill do you decide to take extra risks?

If Kate is already in the square, perhaps even when Harvey says he looked in, then the few minutes don't seem so crucial to the overall results.

[Trevor Marriott]

If this is accepted though Jeff, and we can rely on Watkins estimates, then the margin for error is ridiculously slim. Even if he only takes 5 minutes to do all the mutilations, mark the face, cut the colon and the apron, access the kidney...we still have to get them into the square, have him subdue her...apparently quietly, and kill her with the throat cuts. Its so finely orchestrated with the Lawende sighting its seems unrealistic. Sometimes things just work out, I realize that, but on your supposed 4th public kill do you decide to take extra risks?

If Kate is already in the square, perhaps even when Harvey says he looked in, then the few minutes don't seem so crucial to the overall results.

The timings are possible if the killer did not remove the organs. That would then have given him sufficient time to do all that he is supposed to have done within an acceptable time frame.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

The timings are possible if the killer did not remove the organs.

Equally possible if he did.

That would then have given him sufficient time to do all that he is supposed to have done within an acceptable time frame.

You mean it took him several minutes to overpower a mere sparrow of a woman and cut her throat? The police were obviously barking up the wrong tree - they should have been looking for a seven-stone weakling with a paper-knife

[Trevor Marriott]

Equally possible if he did.
You mean it took him several minutes to overpower a mere sparrow of a woman and cut her throat? The police were obviously barking up the wrong tree - they should have been looking for a seven-stone weakling with a paper-knife

No, he had the time to do all of that. but not enough time to remove the organs, there is just no time based on what we know, and what we dont know, because if the couple seen were the killer and Eddowes the absolute earliest they could have arrived at the murder scene was 1.37 if the killer was disturbed by Harvey at 1.41am thats 4 mins by my reckoning.

Dr Brown even stated that it could have taken the killer longer than the 5 minutes he stated.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

Dr Brown even stated that it could have taken the killer longer than the 5 minutes he stated.

I could easily do all that in less than 5 minutes. Easily.

[Michael W Richards]

The fact that I disagree with where Trevor believes the organs were taken, and the fact that Im sure a slice and grab organ removal could go fairly quickly as Sam indicates, as I said, the couple that Lawende saw would still have had to have made their way to the murder spot, just after 1:35am, and then have the kill first then the cutting, then be gone before 1:44. Too tight for me anyway.

In Ripper terms this would be another point in favour of Kate being a non-ripper murder if its as Sam portrays, because the Ripper just cut into Annie in places he needed to so as to obtain what he did take...almost exclusively. It was Phillips opinion that the cuts were made so as to obtain the organ taken. If this sloppy cut and grab murder of Kates was so hastily and sloppily done so it can fit this proposed the timeline, and without an ultimate objective, then its just another reason to exclude jack.

[Wickerman]

...... Its so finely orchestrated with the Lawende sighting its seems unrealistic......

Which was my argument, it's almost like it would have to be rehearsed.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Trevor,

The timings are possible if the killer did not remove the organs. That would then have given him sufficient time to do all that he is supposed to have done within an acceptable time frame.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I realize you make arguments for the above idea, but I think that's a different topic for a different thread. For the present purposes I think we stick to the evidence as it is rather than embark upon "if's and maybe's" in order to dismiss it.

- Jeff