Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[jerryd]

I think we all mostly agree the timeframe to kill was somewhat short? I think we also mostly agree the killer was working in a pretty dark area of the square. At least not ideal to make mutilations like he did.

The killer would have an advantage if he knew the habits of the residents of the square, EXACTLY when PC Watkins was in the square each round; a light to work with over the body and yet another if he had a refuge only steps away from the murder scene. Only one man that I know of had all of these advantages at his disposal. George Morris.

[Sam Flynn]

I think we all mostly agree the timeframe to kill was somewhat short? I think we also mostly agree the killer was working in a pretty dark area of the square. At least not ideal to make mutilations like he did.

Maybe that's why he limited himself to one long abdominal incision, instead of the several, more intricate cuts he inflicted on the other victims.

[Sam Flynn]

Are we to assume he is doing this in near darkness?
Does Dr West still have all his fingers?

People grossly underestimate just how much can be done in five minutes or less. They also seem to forget Dr Sequeira saying that there would have been sufficient illumination to perform the mutilations.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry D,

No expert on this, but from various "true crime" shows and books, I've gathered that it takes about 15-20 seconds to strangle someone to unconsciousness, but minutes to death. JtR only needs the former, given the throat cutting. Also, if you're strangling someone sufficiently to render them unconscious, they can't make a sound, and struggles against you would not be overly noisy. With Nicholes, Chapman, and Eddowes, it appears a sudden attack (meaning strangulation attack) occurs and successfully renders them unconscious enough to then cut the throat, and continue. With Kelly, there is some question to this due to the testimonies of cries of "murder" around 4 am (if it was her, that attack was not as silent as the others; if not Kelly, well, meaningless - who knows? not me, that's for sure), and with Stride (all caveats in play), we have Schwartz's testimony that describes anything but a successful immediate strangulation. So, we have either 3/5 or 3/4 successful strangulation attacks that prevent cries from the victim. Make of that what you will in terms of skill, but basically, nobody heard anything seems to reflect the fact that in most cases, his victimes were intoxicated to some extent (Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and in some reports Kelly), making it easy to strangle (silence) them, yet even then, he may not have always been entirely successful (i.e. Schwartz's description of the attack on Stride would be "Ripper gone wrong").

- Jeff

Despite what you see on television, strangling someone isn't easy. Even if the victims were inebriated, the survival instinct would kick in and they would fight tooth and claw to survive. For nobody to hear a thing in Mitre Square, not even the night watchman nearby, indicates to me that the killer must have been particularly strong and skilled. It has been considered that the killer might have used a ligature, and the evidence was obliterated by the throat cutting. Either way, I'm still surprised at the stealth-like manner in which he dispatched Eddowes.

[FISHY1118]

Perhaps the good doctor west would like to comment on Dr browns opinion of the postmortem which he himself conducted .. saying quote ''I believe the perpetrator of the act must have had considerable knowledge of the position of the organs in the abdominal cavity AND THE WAY OF REMOVING THEM. It required a great deal of medical knowledge to have removed the kidney and to know where it was placed. The parts removed would be of no use for any professional purpose''. sound to me being very precise and deliberate. read the entire postmortem Sam and ask yourself does it sound like the work of been very crudely done. Crudely, rapidly done. Moving a knife quickly. now if the secret history people had of asked the good doctor to conduct an experiment at mitre square at 1.35 in the morning in the dark and lets face it it was in the darkest corner where there was no light , using a knife not made before 1888 and with the stop watch ticking down from 6 minutes before .p.c watkins walks into the square . what do you think he would have said ? thats right theres yours answer because no ones ever attempted to replicate it on a animal or a corpse or whatever, it may be because they know it cant be done not in two minutes note in five minutes . MOST PEOPLE MAKE THE MISTAKE OF PLACING EDDOWS AT THE CHURCH ST PASSAGE WITH A MAN ITS WRONG TO ASSUME IT WAS EDDOWS, BASES ON THE SOLE TESTIMONY OF LAWENDE WHO COULD ONLY IDENTIFY HER DEAD BODY FROM THE CLOTHES SHE WAS WEARING WERE SIMILAR TO THE WOMEN HE SAW, WHO BY THE WAY HAD HER BACK TO HIM. 9TH NOV CHIEF INSPECTOR DONALD SWANSONS REPORT.Eddows was released from Bisopsgate police station at 1.00 jailer Hutt saw her to the gate and asked her to closed it behind her. he testifies he thought she was going home after she told him ''i shall get a right hiding when i get home'' nowhere in his or anyone testimony claims she turned left to mitre square instead right to flower and dean st where she lived. Eddows. wasn't murdered at mitre square, but her body was there at 1.45am tho, thats a fact ........NOW ON TO CHAPMAN AND ILL EXPLAIN WHY SHE WASN'T MURDERED WHERE HER BODY WAS FOUND EITHER. .

[JeffHamm]

Despite what you see on television, strangling someone isn't easy. Even if the victims were inebriated, the survival instinct would kick in and they would fight tooth and claw to survive. For nobody to hear a thing in Mitre Square, not even the night watchman nearby, indicates to me that the killer must have been particularly strong and skilled. It has been considered that the killer might have used a ligature, and the evidence was obliterated by the throat cutting. Either way, I'm still surprised at the stealth-like manner in which he dispatched Eddowes.

Yes, I am surprised by it too, and also of the same with Chapman and Nichols. Kelly may have yelled out, if the cries of "Murder" around 4:00 am were her (and if Stride was a JtR victim, then she seems to have been a botched attack). But how these attacks, in very public and populated places, occurred with so little noise is a mystery. A ligature does make sense and as you say, could have been masked by the throat cutting. And Kelly's position, being in bed, would make a ligature more difficult to use in the first place.

The one thing that might suggest manual strangulation, and lack of noise, is that all of the out door victims are near walls/fences of some sort. If he did grab them with his hands and push them against the wall, he might somehow restrain their movements enough to prevent a noise. But I find it a bit difficult to imagine how he could strangle them while also bracing against them. He would have to have a fair bit of strength in his hands, but if here were a manual laborer, that might not be unexpected.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

People grossly underestimate just how much can be done in five minutes or less. They also seem to forget Dr Sequeira saying that there would have been sufficient illumination to perform the mutilations.

Yes, but not the removal of a uterus and a kidney. He also went on to say that all of this could have been done in three minutes, but my interpretation of what he said and Brown said (5 minutes) relates to just the murder and the mutilations.

The light issue is debatable. The lamp in the square was not working correctly, and as is known gas lamps only emit a downward beam of light around the lamp itself.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, but not the removal of a uterus and a kidney.

Once you've located the organs - it helps if you know roughly where, but I can't see that it would be strictly necessary - it would only take a few seconds to cut them out, perhaps fifteen at most.

my interpretation of what he said and Brown said (5 minutes) relates to just the murder and the mutilations

Quite possibly - indeed, I myself have previously estimated it at roughly 5 minutes - but it wouldn't have taken very long for the killer and Eddowes to have entered the Square and reached "Ripper's Corner".

[Abby Normal]

Yes, I am surprised by it too, and also of the same with Chapman and Nichols. Kelly may have yelled out, if the cries of "Murder" around 4:00 am were her (and if Stride was a JtR victim, then she seems to have been a botched attack). But how these attacks, in very public and populated places, occurred with so little noise is a mystery. A ligature does make sense and as you say, could have been masked by the throat cutting. And Kelly's position, being in bed, would make a ligature more difficult to use in the first place.

The one thing that might suggest manual strangulation, and lack of noise, is that all of the out door victims are near walls/fences of some sort. If he did grab them with his hands and push them against the wall, he might somehow restrain their movements enough to prevent a noise. But I find it a bit difficult to imagine how he could strangle them while also bracing against them. He would have to have a fair bit of strength in his hands, but if here were a manual laborer, that might not be unexpected.

- Jeff

hi Harry and Jeff
it takes approx. 20 seconds to render someone unconscious with a blood choke-which can be done by manual strangulation which we have evidence the ripper did.
of course its difficult with a struggling victim, but these were women and not in the best of condition. theres also indications of blows to the head too with some of the victims. the ripper must have been a very powerful man who knew what he was doing in terms of physical confrontations, fights etc. and a very strong man strangling a women with his hands around their throat applying a lot of pressure would help stifle screams.
he could have them unconscious and on the ground in mere seconds followed by the throat cut.

and yes Im still surprised he was able to do it so quickly and stealthily.

[mpriestnall]

. He would have to have a fair bit of strength in his hands, but if here were a manual laborer, that might not be unexpected.
- Jeff

Or nature happen to endow Jack with larger than average hands? Not such a big ask, is it?

[Sam Flynn]

Or nature happen to endow Jack with larger than average hands? Not such a big ask, is it?

He da man!

[mpriestnall]

He da man!

Jack was an ancestor of Kenny Everett!

[mpriestnall]

Jack's upper body strength (broad shoulders/stout appearance) plus "He da man!" large hands suggested Jack's method of subduing his victims
ie strangulation. This in turn dictated the choice of victims ie those who were a few inches shorter than him. Maybe.

[Dr. John Watson]

People grossly underestimate just how much can be done in five minutes or less. They also seem to forget Dr Sequeira saying that there would have been sufficient illumination to perform the mutilations.

Hi Sam.

I'm not sure how much validity one can place on Dr. Sequeira's estimate of the lighting at the exact spot where Eddowes' body was found. Was the area unlit when he first arrived, as it was at the time of the murder, or did someone have a lantern? Did he kneel down beside the body as the Ripper must have, and was he appraising the lighting or lack thereof at that moment? I don't recall the question of illumination being on his mind at the time, so a latter appraisal would be going by memory. Just don't think we can take that as evidence.

Dr. John

[Dr. John Watson]

Jack's upper body strength (broad shoulders/stout appearance) plus "He da man!" large hands suggested Jack's method of subduing his victims
ie strangulation. This in turn dictated the choice of victims ie those who were a few inches shorter than him. Maybe.

Who said Jack was stout and broad-shouldered?

Dr. John