Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[FISHY1118]

its quite simple jeff 1.35 from dukes passage to the spot of the murder 80 feet, let say 1.37 give or take , throat cut causing instant death 30 secs , body discovered 1.44 leaves 6 and half mins give or take . if the mutilations took at least 15 mins according to an expert surgeon not an opinion for just anyone an expert surgeon mind you were left with only one answer . eddows wasnt killed on that spot she was dumped there.

[JeffHamm]

I'm still fascinated with the fact that no one heard anything. You don't just slice someone's throat like a Tarantino movie. And there was no blood splatter, if I recall? It is likely that the Ripper incapacitated his victims beforehand. Strangling someone isn't a piece of cake. There would be a scuffle but incredibly no one heard a penny drop. All I will say is that JTR must have been powerfully built / had some kind of combat training.

Hi Harry D,

No expert on this, but from various "true crime" shows and books, I've gathered that it takes about 15-20 seconds to strangle someone to unconsciousness, but minutes to death. JtR only needs the former, given the throat cutting. Also, if you're strangling someone sufficiently to render them unconscious, they can't make a sound, and struggles against you would not be overly noisy. With Nicholes, Chapman, and Eddowes, it appears a sudden attack (meaning strangulation attack) occurs and successfully renders them unconscious enough to then cut the throat, and continue. With Kelly, there is some question to this due to the testimonies of cries of "murder" around 4 am (if it was her, that attack was not as silent as the others; if not Kelly, well, meaningless - who knows? not me, that's for sure), and with Stride (all caveats in play), we have Schwartz's testimony that describes anything but a successful immediate strangulation. So, we have either 3/5 or 3/4 successful strangulation attacks that prevent cries from the victim. Make of that what you will in terms of skill, but basically, nobody heard anything seems to reflect the fact that in most cases, his victimes were intoxicated to some extent (Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and in some reports Kelly), making it easy to strangle (silence) them, yet even then, he may not have always been entirely successful (i.e. Schwartz's description of the attack on Stride would be "Ripper gone wrong").

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

doctor brown was wrong in his estimated time to mutilate Eddows .

Er, except that it was Phillips who truly estimated the time it would take. Brown actually went to the trouble of replicating the organ removal in a timed experiment. What makes you favour Phillips' estimate over Brown's empirical evidence?

OTHER ORGANS . WHICH BY THE WAY WERE WITH OUT DAMAGE

Except, of course, the uterus, large intestine, small intestine, liver, pancreas and spleen.

A VERY SKILFUL HAND WAS AT WORK HERE NOT A BUTCHER

See above. And what makes you think someone who cuts up carcasses for a living isn't skilful?

[FISHY1118]

Phillips evidence was given at the official inquest to the murder i dont see browns timed experiment at any inquest or official document, but id like to see if if it was in fact done .all i said was it was a skilful hand was at work. yes indeed a person who cuts up carcasses is skilfull hand.

[FISHY1118]

really jeff...... strangled im pretty sure the official cause of death was the cutting of the throat .

[Michael W Richards]

its quite simple jeff 1.35 from dukes passage to the spot of the murder 80 feet, let say 1.37 give or take , throat cut causing instant death 30 secs , body discovered 1.44 leaves 6 and half mins give or take . if the mutilations took at least 15 mins according to an expert surgeon not an opinion for just anyone an expert surgeon mind you were left with only one answer . eddows wasnt killed on that spot she was dumped there.

There is good chance IMHO that Lawende did not see Kate with sailor Man, so the very tight timing of this murder/mutilation event need not be as tight as most people think. His initial ID establishes this tight timeline, but as he said "I only had a short look at him", and he later identified the clothing Kate had on as being "like" the type he saw on the woman...from the back.

[JeffHamm]

really jeff...... strangled im pretty sure the official cause of death was the cutting of the throat .

Hi fishy,

Strangulation was just the start of the attack, it renders them unconscious, allowing the fatal throat cutting. That was the opinion of the medical personnel at the time, and since strangulation to unconsciousness appears to take little time, that's probably useful information to know. Did you really think that I was suggesting that strangulation resulted in their throats splitting open?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

its quite simple jeff 1.35 from dukes passage to the spot of the murder 80 feet, let say 1.37 give or take , throat cut causing instant death 30 secs , body discovered 1.44 leaves 6 and half mins give or take . if the mutilations took at least 15 mins according to an expert surgeon not an opinion for just anyone an expert surgeon mind you were left with only one answer . eddows wasnt killed on that spot she was dumped there.

15 minutes was the estimation for Chapman. Eddowes was killed where she was found based upon the blood evidence. PC Watkins patrol was 14 minutes (according to his testimony) so the muder must have taken less. She was not dumped there - if she was, the transport still has to go unspotted, and somehow they get the clotted blood beside her neck.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

So let me get this straight. You're saying it took even more time, to commit the murder? You've got a 14 minute window to worth with.

It's instructive to remember this interview from a 1996 Secret History documentary on the Ripper, in the section relating to Eddowes' murder:

Interviewer: "Police surgeons of the day said that to do that amount of evisceration would take around 15 minutes or so. Is that your view?"
Pathologist: "About two minutes."
Interviewer: "Two minutes?"
Pathologist: "That's right. It's been very crudely done. Crudely, rapidly done. Moving a knife quickly, I would imagine that everything could have been done perhaps in two, perhaps in three minutes."

The pathologist in question was Dr Iain West, head of the faculty of Forensic Medicine at Guy's Hospital. A veteran of thousands of autopsies and several high-profile forensic pathology investigations, including those of Jill Dando and Sir Robert Maxwell.

[FISHY1118]

excellent post michael richards.. lawende only identified her by her clothes, could have been any other prostitute the area . too shay lol

[FISHY1118]

hi jeff . theres not one documented piece of official evidence at any of the the the victims inquest that were first strangled unconscious before their throats were cut . if you can provide it id gladly like to see it .and no too your last sentence of that post .

[JeffHamm]

hi jeff . theres not one documented piece of official evidence at any of the the the victims inquest that were first strangled unconscious before their throats were cut . if you can provide it id gladly like to see it .and no too your last sentence of that post .

Hi Fishy,

Yes, there is. Don't have notes in front of me at the moment, but I believe Nichols and Chapman both showed swollen faces, bloated tongues, and there was medical testimony to both that they were strangled (might be phrased as "breathing interfered with" or such).

But none of the victims were deposited where they were found. All were killed on the spot.

- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

Pathologist i.e definition, a person who studies the cause and effect of deceases, one who examines laboratory tissue. for forensic purpose. with due respect to dr iain west ill still go with the surgeon opinion and the dark corner of mitre square in which the murderer had to perform the removal of a human kidney with out damage to surrounding tissue .

[FISHY1118]

due to the impression of the murderer holding the hand over there mouth while he cut there throat, finger and thumb causes of the bruises

[FISHY1118]

Nichols Chapman and Eddows .. just 3