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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Juniper4576,

    It is possible. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, and PC Harvey's beat did not include going into Mitre Square. As such, he would be looking through a lit area into the dark, which makes it very hard to see anything. However, the likelihood that JtR would stick around after PC Harvey turns around and heads away seems vanishingly small to me. And leaving at that time would explain why PC Watkin's doesn't spot him.

    - Jeff
    I think you made a previous observation which I have postulated previous and that is if the killer was in the process of carrying out the murder he would have been able to see and hear Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage and would have made his escape very quickly into Mitre Street. Pc Harver would not have been able to see him due to the lamp outside Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage, and even if he then stopped where his beat ended and looke into the square it would have taken time for his eyes to adjust

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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    • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      I think you made a previous observation which I have postulated previous and that is if the killer was in the process of carrying out the murder he would have been able to see and hear Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage and would have made his escape very quickly into Mitre Street. Pc Harver would not have been able to see him due to the lamp outside Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage, and even if he then stopped where his beat ended and looke into the square it would have taken time for his eyes to adjust

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
      Hi Trevor,
      .Yes, even easier for PC Harvey to miss him if JtR leaves as Harvey is coming up Church Passage - Jeff

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Meet Ze Monster View Post

        The Mitre square event is such a puzzle and I keep thinking of questions that can't be answered - only speculated on. One thing is for certain though; it would take an incredible number of things to fall into place in such a tight timeframe that it's truly one of the biggest mysteries around the whole case in my opinion. I hate the notion of just pure luck because, you know, where's the mystery in that!?.
        I often think we create these mysteries by simply applying what we think are reasonable assumptions, but those assumptions are taken from the 'perfect world', this is perhaps where we go wrong.
        Almost all students of the case prefer to see the couple at the end of church passage as Eddowes & her killer, yet the police were not so certain. When we go with our preferences we create a time-window that may not be justified.
        Perhaps this couple was not Eddowes & the killer?

        Harvey patrolled church passage on his beat every shift, but why walk down this ally every time, especially when he can see pretty clearly right to the end because there was a gas lamp at the mitre-square end, on the corner of the building. It was not his duty to survey the square, just check the passage, and he could do that from the Duke St. end.
        He knows though, that he must include the passage in his report regardless whether he actually walked to the end or not.
        Perhaps, PC Harvey did not walk to the end of the passage on every occasion as he passed on his beat?

        PC Watkins knows his beat pretty well, he knows it takes 12-14 minutes, so he is required to fill his report with details that are consistent with a 12-14 minute beat. Did he look in every corner with his lamp lit?
        Apparently, the oil used for these lamps was paid for by the beat constable himself, so the more he uses his lamp, the more it cost him. Is that a good incentive to always have the lamp on when walking his beat, or just when he thinks it necessary?
        In his testimony, according to accounts, we read Watkins entered the square at 1:44, yet in other reports he said he entered the square, discovered the body, ran to the warehouse and alerted Morris, whom he sent for help, and then looked at his watch - it was 1:44. It can't be both.

        Did he really enter the square at 1:44?, if so, why check his watch on entering the square? It seems an overly fastidious think to do. Or, more likely, he only checked his watch later, after he sent Morris for help. So, was it really 1:44 at that specific point in time, or was it later, and he has deducted the amount of time he thinks it took him (1, 2 or 3 minutes?) from discovering the body to sending Morris for help?
        Remember what Morris claimed - he spoke to Watkins and went to get his lamp, then went into the square to look at the body, before he ran for help. Therefore, his encounter with Watkins was not instantaneous, they were in each others company possibly, for a minute or two?
        What does the time 1:44 really represent; the time Watkins entered the square, or an assumed time after he deducted several minutes for his exchanges with Morris?

        All these variables can narrow down the time-window if we assume perfection, though if we permit a bit of flexibility in each instance then we find there indeed was time for this killer to do what he did.



        Regards, Jon S.

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        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


          All these variables can narrow down the time-window if we assume perfection, though if we permit a bit of flexibility in each instance then we find there indeed was time for this killer to do what he did.



          yes, there must be flexibility as times can be misleading. I mean, the time it took Watkins to raise the alarm and send Morris for help may well have been way under a minute's time - maybe just over a minute if Morris came to see the body and exchange words with Watkins. Given the sudden shocking discovery, adrenalin would have kicked in and the men would have surely acted quickly.

          I'm inclined to hold onto the idea that Harvey only peered into Church Passage in passing, completely missing the event unfolding beyond. Or, his approach alerted the Ripper with ample time to escape into Mitre Street.



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          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            I often think we create these mysteries by simply applying what we think are reasonable assumptions, but those assumptions are taken from the 'perfect world', this is perhaps where we go wrong.
            Almost all students of the case prefer to see the couple at the end of church passage as Eddowes & her killer, yet the police were not so certain. When we go with our preferences we create a time-window that may not be justified.
            Perhaps this couple was not Eddowes & the killer?

            , and he could do that from the Duke St. end.
            He knows though, that he must include the passage in his report regardless whether he actually walked to the end or not.
            Perhaps, PC Harvey did not walk to the end of the passage on every occasion as he passed on his beat?

            PC Watkins knows his beat pretty well, he knows it takes 12-14 minutes, so he is required to fill his report with details that are consistent with a 12-14 minute beat. Did he look in every corner with his lamp lit?
            Apparently, the oil used for these lamps was paid for by the beat constable himself, so the more he uses his lamp, the more it cost him. Is that a good incentive to always have the lamp on when walking his beat, or just when he thinks it necessary?
            In his testimony, according to accounts, we read Watkins entered the square at 1:44, yet in other reports he said he entered the square, discovered the body, ran to the warehouse and alerted Morris, whom he sent for help, and then looked at his watch - it was 1:44. It can't be both.

            Did he really enter the square at 1:44?, if so, why check his watch on entering the square? It seems an overly fastidious think to do. Or, more likely, he only checked his watch later, after he sent Morris for help. So, was it really 1:44 at that specific point in time, or was it later, and he has deducted the amount of time he thinks it took him (1, 2 or 3 minutes?) from discovering the body to sending Morris for help?
            Remember what Morris claimed - he spoke to Watkins and went to get his lamp, then went into the square to look at the body, before he ran for help. Therefore, his encounter with Watkins was not instantaneous, they were in each others company possibly, for a minute or two?
            What does the time 1:44 really represent; the time Watkins entered the square, or an assumed time after he deducted several minutes for his exchanges with Morris?

            All these variables can narrow down the time-window if we assume perfection, though if we permit a bit of flexibility in each instance then we find there indeed was time for this killer to do what he did.


            Above...

            "Harvey patrolled church passage on his beat every shift, but why walk down this ally every time, especially when he can see pretty clearly right to the end because there was a gas lamp at the mitre-square end, on the corner of the building. It was not his duty to survey the square, just check the passage".

            Why indeed? Leaving that passage as a viable escape route, and without broaching the carriageway entrance which was better lit and bigger. But winding back a bit further, exactly how much time could he have had...if Harvey didnt check the passage and Lawende didnt see Kate with Sailor Man.

            Ive never been able to buy the sighting at 1:35 and discovery in that location and in the state she was in at 1:43ish. Having more time there than generally believed makes more sense to me.

            Last edited by Michael W Richards; Today, 01:20 PM.
            Michael Richards

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