Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Juniper4576,

    It is possible. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, and PC Harvey's beat did not include going into Mitre Square. As such, he would be looking through a lit area into the dark, which makes it very hard to see anything. However, the likelihood that JtR would stick around after PC Harvey turns around and heads away seems vanishingly small to me. And leaving at that time would explain why PC Watkin's doesn't spot him.

    - Jeff
    I think you made a previous observation which I have postulated previous and that is if the killer was in the process of carrying out the murder he would have been able to see and hear Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage and would have made his escape very quickly into Mitre Street. Pc Harver would not have been able to see him due to the lamp outside Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage, and even if he then stopped where his beat ended and looke into the square it would have taken time for his eyes to adjust

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      I think you made a previous observation which I have postulated previous and that is if the killer was in the process of carrying out the murder he would have been able to see and hear Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage and would have made his escape very quickly into Mitre Street. Pc Harver would not have been able to see him due to the lamp outside Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage, and even if he then stopped where his beat ended and looke into the square it would have taken time for his eyes to adjust

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
      Hi Trevor,
      .Yes, even easier for PC Harvey to miss him if JtR leaves as Harvey is coming up Church Passage - Jeff

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Meet Ze Monster View Post

        The Mitre square event is such a puzzle and I keep thinking of questions that can't be answered - only speculated on. One thing is for certain though; it would take an incredible number of things to fall into place in such a tight timeframe that it's truly one of the biggest mysteries around the whole case in my opinion. I hate the notion of just pure luck because, you know, where's the mystery in that!?.
        I often think we create these mysteries by simply applying what we think are reasonable assumptions, but those assumptions are taken from the 'perfect world', this is perhaps where we go wrong.
        Almost all students of the case prefer to see the couple at the end of church passage as Eddowes & her killer, yet the police were not so certain. When we go with our preferences we create a time-window that may not be justified.
        Perhaps this couple was not Eddowes & the killer?

        Harvey patrolled church passage on his beat every shift, but why walk down this ally every time, especially when he can see pretty clearly right to the end because there was a gas lamp at the mitre-square end, on the corner of the building. It was not his duty to survey the square, just check the passage, and he could do that from the Duke St. end.
        He knows though, that he must include the passage in his report regardless whether he actually walked to the end or not.
        Perhaps, PC Harvey did not walk to the end of the passage on every occasion as he passed on his beat?

        PC Watkins knows his beat pretty well, he knows it takes 12-14 minutes, so he is required to fill his report with details that are consistent with a 12-14 minute beat. Did he look in every corner with his lamp lit?
        Apparently, the oil used for these lamps was paid for by the beat constable himself, so the more he uses his lamp, the more it cost him. Is that a good incentive to always have the lamp on when walking his beat, or just when he thinks it necessary?
        In his testimony, according to accounts, we read Watkins entered the square at 1:44, yet in other reports he said he entered the square, discovered the body, ran to the warehouse and alerted Morris, whom he sent for help, and then looked at his watch - it was 1:44. It can't be both.

        Did he really enter the square at 1:44?, if so, why check his watch on entering the square? It seems an overly fastidious think to do. Or, more likely, he only checked his watch later, after he sent Morris for help. So, was it really 1:44 at that specific point in time, or was it later, and he has deducted the amount of time he thinks it took him (1, 2 or 3 minutes?) from discovering the body to sending Morris for help?
        Remember what Morris claimed - he spoke to Watkins and went to get his lamp, then went into the square to look at the body, before he ran for help. Therefore, his encounter with Watkins was not instantaneous, they were in each others company possibly, for a minute or two?
        What does the time 1:44 really represent; the time Watkins entered the square, or an assumed time after he deducted several minutes for his exchanges with Morris?

        All these variables can narrow down the time-window if we assume perfection, though if we permit a bit of flexibility in each instance then we find there indeed was time for this killer to do what he did.



        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


          All these variables can narrow down the time-window if we assume perfection, though if we permit a bit of flexibility in each instance then we find there indeed was time for this killer to do what he did.



          yes, there must be flexibility as times can be misleading. I mean, the time it took Watkins to raise the alarm and send Morris for help may well have been way under a minute's time - maybe just over a minute if Morris came to see the body and exchange words with Watkins. Given the sudden shocking discovery, adrenalin would have kicked in and the men would have surely acted quickly.

          I'm inclined to hold onto the idea that Harvey only peered into Church Passage in passing, completely missing the event unfolding beyond. Or, his approach alerted the Ripper with ample time to escape into Mitre Street.



          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            I often think we create these mysteries by simply applying what we think are reasonable assumptions, but those assumptions are taken from the 'perfect world', this is perhaps where we go wrong.
            Almost all students of the case prefer to see the couple at the end of church passage as Eddowes & her killer, yet the police were not so certain. When we go with our preferences we create a time-window that may not be justified.
            Perhaps this couple was not Eddowes & the killer?

            , and he could do that from the Duke St. end.
            He knows though, that he must include the passage in his report regardless whether he actually walked to the end or not.
            Perhaps, PC Harvey did not walk to the end of the passage on every occasion as he passed on his beat?

            PC Watkins knows his beat pretty well, he knows it takes 12-14 minutes, so he is required to fill his report with details that are consistent with a 12-14 minute beat. Did he look in every corner with his lamp lit?
            Apparently, the oil used for these lamps was paid for by the beat constable himself, so the more he uses his lamp, the more it cost him. Is that a good incentive to always have the lamp on when walking his beat, or just when he thinks it necessary?
            In his testimony, according to accounts, we read Watkins entered the square at 1:44, yet in other reports he said he entered the square, discovered the body, ran to the warehouse and alerted Morris, whom he sent for help, and then looked at his watch - it was 1:44. It can't be both.

            Did he really enter the square at 1:44?, if so, why check his watch on entering the square? It seems an overly fastidious think to do. Or, more likely, he only checked his watch later, after he sent Morris for help. So, was it really 1:44 at that specific point in time, or was it later, and he has deducted the amount of time he thinks it took him (1, 2 or 3 minutes?) from discovering the body to sending Morris for help?
            Remember what Morris claimed - he spoke to Watkins and went to get his lamp, then went into the square to look at the body, before he ran for help. Therefore, his encounter with Watkins was not instantaneous, they were in each others company possibly, for a minute or two?
            What does the time 1:44 really represent; the time Watkins entered the square, or an assumed time after he deducted several minutes for his exchanges with Morris?

            All these variables can narrow down the time-window if we assume perfection, though if we permit a bit of flexibility in each instance then we find there indeed was time for this killer to do what he did.


            Above...

            "Harvey patrolled church passage on his beat every shift, but why walk down this ally every time, especially when he can see pretty clearly right to the end because there was a gas lamp at the mitre-square end, on the corner of the building. It was not his duty to survey the square, just check the passage".

            Why indeed? Leaving that passage as a viable escape route, and without broaching the carriageway entrance which was better lit and bigger. But winding back a bit further, exactly how much time could he have had...if Harvey didnt check the passage and Lawende didnt see Kate with Sailor Man.

            Ive never been able to buy the sighting at 1:35 and discovery in that location and in the state she was in at 1:43ish. Having more time there than generally believed makes more sense to me.

            Last edited by Michael W Richards; 02-25-2021, 01:20 PM.
            Michael Richards

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

              Above...

              "Harvey patrolled church passage on his beat every shift, but why walk down this ally every time, especially when he can see pretty clearly right to the end because there was a gas lamp at the mitre-square end, on the corner of the building. It was not his duty to survey the square, just check the passage".

              Why indeed? Leaving that passage as a viable escape route, and without broaching the carriageway entrance which was better lit and bigger. But winding back a bit further, exactly how much time could he have had...if Harvey didnt check the passage and Lawende didnt see Kate with Sailor Man.

              Ive never been able to buy the sighting at 1:35 and discovery in that location and in the state she was in at 1:43ish. Having more time there than generally believed makes more sense to me.
              I try looking for how Jack made more time in the square. That's where the thought I had of Jack and Kate waited for Watkins to come out of the square knowing they would have more time in the square.

              Harvey probably interupted Jack, by the sound of his footsteps alone, and if he didn't walk down church passage, then surely that would give Jack more time.

              Then we have DJAs theory that the yard to the left of Kates body was used, this is interesting. Did one of the buildings, that I seen somewhere were empty, have access from front to back as in Hanbury St, was this Jacks exit from the scene? Could they of even entered the square this way?

              I am an amateur on here but I would like hear people with more knowledge than me on how they think of this.

              Jim
              "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

              Comment


              • It was postulated at the time of the investigation that Kate may have been killed elsewhere and left where she was found, likely due to what was initially thought to be a small amount of blood pooled. it was later discovered the back of her clothing was soaked with it. There is also a possibility that an empty warehouse was used, there were a few of those in Mitre Square at the time.

                A big question many people pass by is....why in this murder do we have ONLY ex or active policemen anywhere near that murder at the time it occurs? City Detectives Marriott, Halse and Outram searching alleys nearby for some reason, did they expect something that night? Were they expecting a Post Office breakin..which occurred over that same weekend around the corner? Morris, Pearce, Watkins, Harvey....? Why is it that ONLY 7 active or ex police are anywhere near there.
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  It was postulated at the time of the investigation that Kate may have been killed elsewhere and left where she was found, likely due to what was initially thought to be a small amount of blood pooled. it was later discovered the back of her clothing was soaked with it. There is also a possibility that an empty warehouse was used, there were a few of those in Mitre Square at the time.

                  A big question many people pass by is....why in this murder do we have ONLY ex or active policemen anywhere near that murder at the time it occurs? City Detectives Marriott, Halse and Outram searching alleys nearby for some reason, did they expect something that night? Were they expecting a Post Office breakin..which occurred over that same weekend around the corner? Morris, Pearce, Watkins, Harvey....? Why is it that ONLY 7 active or ex police are anywhere near there.
                  Surely if they had a tip off about the Post Office breakin they would of foiled it, and as someone stated on here there were also officers in plain clothes...could it be St. Botolph's and its reputation with prostitutes that attracted their attention?
                  "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    It was postulated at the time of the investigation that Kate may have been killed elsewhere and left where she was found, likely due to what was initially thought to be a small amount of blood pooled. it was later discovered the back of her clothing was soaked with it. There is also a possibility that an empty warehouse was used, there were a few of those in Mitre Square at the time.

                    A big question many people pass by is....why in this murder do we have ONLY ex or active policemen anywhere near that murder at the time it occurs? City Detectives Marriott, Halse and Outram searching alleys nearby for some reason, did they expect something that night? Were they expecting a Post Office breakin..which occurred over that same weekend around the corner? Morris, Pearce, Watkins, Harvey....? Why is it that ONLY 7 active or ex police are anywhere near there.
                    Well, that's not entirely the case. We also have Lawende and his two friends, and presumably they are not the only ones in the club, so probably a couple others we don't know the names of are in the vicinity. We have Blenkinsop in St. Jame's Place, who notes there were "people about" at that time. There's a news report that indicates someone hears another saying "I'm not the murderer", or words to that effect (I just forget who it is that reports this bit), but there's another couple people.

                    Basically, in Mitre Square, there's Morris, who was a retired policeman, and there's another living in a building there as well, so no matter what time the murder occurs, it's going to be near some ex-police men (just like Chapman's is the only murder where, nearby, there's a cat-meat sales business).. We hear of police, or detectives, doing something nearby, but the police would always have jobs being done. It just so happens, this time, they're closer than usual, but there's nothing particularly alarming about the fact the police were at work that evening, but in the end they're no nearer than Lawende et al's club (which is not full of police), and St. Jame's place where we know there were people about who were not police.

                    So, while there were a fair few police/expolice in the area, there are not "only" police/expolice near by. Also, since the police were increeasing their numbers and patrols, it shows that the strategy was working - JtR was at a much higher risk of capture that night than on previous nights due to the increase number of patrols resulting in the increased number of police near the murder scene.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                      Well, that's not entirely the case. We also have Lawende and his two friends, and presumably they are not the only ones in the club, so probably a couple others we don't know the names of are in the vicinity. We have Blenkinsop in St. Jame's Place, who notes there were "people about" at that time. There's a news report that indicates someone hears another saying "I'm not the murderer", or words to that effect (I just forget who it is that reports this bit), but there's another couple people.

                      Basically, in Mitre Square, there's Morris, who was a retired policeman, and there's another living in a building there as well, so no matter what time the murder occurs, it's going to be near some ex-police men (just like Chapman's is the only murder where, nearby, there's a cat-meat sales business).. We hear of police, or detectives, doing something nearby, but the police would always have jobs being done. It just so happens, this time, they're closer than usual, but there's nothing particularly alarming about the fact the police were at work that evening, but in the end they're no nearer than Lawende et al's club (which is not full of police), and St. Jame's place where we know there were people about who were not police.

                      So, while there were a fair few police/expolice in the area, there are not "only" police/expolice near by. Also, since the police were increeasing their numbers and patrols, it shows that the strategy was working - JtR was at a much higher risk of capture that night than on previous nights due to the increase number of patrols resulting in the increased number of police near the murder scene.

                      - Jeff
                      I agree Jeff, if Jack was responsible for Liz and not finishing how he wanted to then I believe he was lucky and again with Kate, he was lucky as he was disturbed by the sound of Harvey, so again, he was lucky.

                      This highlighted, brought home, the fact to Jack that there was an increased presence by the Police. And vigilante groups, the reason for a lull, before Mary Jane.
                      "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                      Comment


                      • I have read DJAs theory and it sounds convincing...but bringing into account the piece of apron and the writing on the wall, a few questions for people who are more experienced than me...

                        Do people think this is Jack on his way home? If so, did Jack live in the area around the area of the C5 were known to hang out: Flower and Dean St, Thrawl St, Fashion St, Dorset St etc?

                        Did Jack take the route, up Goulston St, as it was between the attention at Berners St and Mitre Square?

                        Did Jack put in a dog leg (the time between Kates estimated time of death and the discovery in Goulston St) and if so which route did he take after leaving Mitre Square?

                        Was Jack aware of the boundary between the City and Metropolitan Police and did he use this to his advantage?

                        Was Kate the 'Nothing' mentioned in the writing on the wall?

                        Regards

                        Jim
                        "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                        Comment


                        • Perhaps Jack was on his way to Mary Ann Kelly's via Goulston Street with the intention of a triple event,having been given the address by "Nothing".
                          The GSG being a red herring to draw police away from 6 Mitre Street.

                          As Joseph Barnett was still in residence,he had to bide his time instead.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                            Perhaps Jack was on his way to Mary Ann Kelly's via Goulston Street with the intention of a triple event,having been given the address by "Nothing".
                            The GSG being a red herring to draw police away from 6 Mitre Street.

                            As Joseph Barnett was still in residence,he had to bide his time instead.
                            Or his common sense told him to head home and 'there will be another night'...
                            Last edited by Juniper4576; 02-26-2021, 10:23 PM.
                            "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                            Comment


                            • Home was 20 miles away and the last train had left.

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Knole Keepers House 1907.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	106.7 KB
ID:	751893
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                                Home was 20 miles away and the last train had left.

                                Click image for larger version

Name:	Knole Keepers House 1907.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	106.7 KB
ID:	751893
                                OK, temporary residence/bolt hole7
                                "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X