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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

    I wonder how far Watkins went into the square on this pass prior to discovering the body. Could he have just walked up near the edge of the building without peering around the corner?
    I'm sure a lot bobbies cut corners, or took liberties on their beat, not looking everywhere they were supposed to look. It could be a boring job for some.
    We both know they are unlikely to admit it, and even if they could have that possibility doesn't make a firm basis for a theory.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • I forgot to remember that I forgot.

      Comment


      • The Start, Oct 2:

        The reported BLOODSTAINS ON THE WINDOW SILL of No. 36, Mitre-street, turned out to be nothing but candle-grease, and if it had been blood it would have indicated nothing but what was already made plain by the finding of the apron in [Goulston]-street. The police are well satisfied that the murderer, having finished the mutilation of the body in Mitre-square, heard footsteps approaching, and had to make an exit before he could remove any of the personal evidences of his crime. He tore a piece off his victim's apron, wiped his hands and his knife on it as he went along, and dropped the bloodstained rag when he was sure he would not be observed. That he did this in [Goulston]-street does not occasion any surprise. The police have never doubted that this midnight murderer lived in the midst of the community he has been terrorising.

        That would seem to reduce the number of possible escape routes, from three to two.

        East London Observer, Oct 6:

        Similarly [to the Berner street situation], Morris, the night watchman of the warehouses in Mitre-square; Pearce, the constable who was sleeping in the house just opposite the scene of the murder; Mr. Levy, the caretaker of the Great Synagogue just by the square; Mr. Klapp, the caretaker of some other premises whose windows look on the scene of the crime; Mr. Carle, the manager of the club in St. James'-place; Mr. Ayres and Mr. W. Isaacs, also of St. James'-place; or Mr. S. Goldberg, of Duke-street, who were all awake at the time, heard no suspicious sound - no cry for help whatever.

        But Mrs. Lindsay, of Duke-street, who is also corroborated by her husband, and Miss Solomon, of the same street, gives an account of an extraordinary incident, stating, as she does, that she was awakened during the night by hearing voices in the street below, and on looking out of the window heard the words distinctly uttered by a man who carried an umbrella and a parcel, and who was rapidly hurrying away "I am not the murderer."


        That would seem to reduce the remaining possibilities from two to one.

        So why did the man who said 'I am not the murderer', seem to think that the man he said it to, supposed that to be the case?
        Was it because the man spoken to, recognized the man who exited Church Passage wiping his hands and a knife, as the man he had not long before seen talking to a woman at the same location?
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Echo, Oct 6:

          ANOTHER POLICE THEORY.

          It is pointed out that the murderer, after the commission of his last crime, undoubtedly proceeded from Mitre square, by way of Church passage, Duke street, Houndsditch, Gravel lane, Storey lane, to Goulston street, at which spot all clue appears to have been lost of him. In this neighbourhood he evidently entered one of the notorious houses to which admission cannot be obtained without elaborate arrangements and a certain amount of danger. It would take about ten minutes for a person to get from Mitre square to the neighbourhood, so that the murderer was well away from the scene, and perhaps safely under cover, before Constable Watkins obtained even medical assistance after the discovery of the body.


          When it is 'pointed out' by the police, that the murderer 'undoubtedly proceeded from Mitre Square, by way of Church Passage', and reached Goulston street by a specific route, 'at which spot all clue appears to have been lost of him', it is clear that this is not some speculative theory, but rather what is regarded as fact.
          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • Hi NBFN,

            If JtR escaped via Church Passage, then based upon the reported timing of events, it would require that he fled that way after PC Harvey had patrolled it. It seems unlikely to me that JtR would stick by the body while a PC came down Church Passage, with a lantern, given that it would be entirely possible that the PC's route included the square itself (unless one wants to harbour the notion that JtR had the patrol routes memorized, which I think stretches credibility). It seems far more likely to me that, once PC Harvey started coming down Church Passage if JtR were still at the scene, he left that that time (it's possible that he was already on the move as Morris testifies he had opened the warehouse door around the same time, so if that happens first then JtR might very well have fled then, just ahead of Harvey's patrol. There's not enough information for us to order Morris and Harvey with anything resembling certainty).

            So, while it is not impossible that JtR waited for Harvey to retreat down Church Passage, and then fled behind him (and one could point to Annie's murder, where there is some reason to consider JtR remained despite activity in the yard next door), the more probable routes seem to me to be the other two. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, just seems highly improbable to me.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • Its also possible that Harvey did not make his pass at that time for whatever reason. His testimony is sound enough, but I cant help thinking a beat cop in the city wouldnt be expecting much to happen on his beat, and this is before he learns of Berner Street I believe. Might he make up time, or linger a bit here or there, and might he then decide to skip the peek into the square that pass?

              The amount of people in fairly close proximity to this murder at the time it occurs is interesting, the fact that all of them are current or ex police is interesting too. The 3 detectives nearby, the 2 constables entering the square sporadically, the night watchman, Pearce in his house which had a bedroom window that looked down on the murder site.

              It seems to me if Kate was killed on that spot then someone looking towards that spot at 1:40 would see a killer and a body. I think Watkins might have just missed him, but that he may have used Church Passage, if one questions Harvey.
              Last edited by Michael W Richards; 01-22-2021, 11:54 AM.
              Michael Richards

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                Hi NBFN,

                If JtR escaped via Church Passage, then based upon the reported timing of events, it would require that he fled that way after PC Harvey had patrolled it. It seems unlikely to me that JtR would stick by the body while a PC came down Church Passage, with a lantern, given that it would be entirely possible that the PC's route included the square itself (unless one wants to harbour the notion that JtR had the patrol routes memorized, which I think stretches credibility). It seems far more likely to me that, once PC Harvey started coming down Church Passage if JtR were still at the scene, he left that that time (it's possible that he was already on the move as Morris testifies he had opened the warehouse door around the same time, so if that happens first then JtR might very well have fled then, just ahead of Harvey's patrol. There's not enough information for us to order Morris and Harvey with anything resembling certainty).

                So, while it is not impossible that JtR waited for Harvey to retreat down Church Passage, and then fled behind him (and one could point to Annie's murder, where there is some reason to consider JtR remained despite activity in the yard next door), the more probable routes seem to me to be the other two. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, just seems highly improbable to me.

                - Jeff
                Hi Jeff.

                JtR can briefly hide from PC Harvey, by standing behind the corner of the Taylor & Co. building, within the entranceway of the square.
                If it happens that Harvey continues into the square, Jack can simply walk away along Mitre street.

                https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...650#post733650
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  Its also possible that Harvey did not make his pass at that time for whatever reason. His testimony is sound enough, but I cant help thinking a beat cop in the city wouldnt be expecting much to happen on his beat, and this is before he learns of Berner Street I believe. Might he make up time, or linger a bit here or there, and might he then decide to skip the peek into the square that pass?

                  The amount of people in fairly close proximity to this murder at the time it occurs is interesting, the fact that all of them are current or ex police is interesting too. The 3 detectives nearby, the 2 constables entering the square sporadically, the night watchman, Pearce in his house which had a bedroom window that looked down on the murder site.

                  It seems to me if Kate was killed on that spot then someone looking towards that spot at 1:40 would see a killer and a body. I think Watkins might have just missed him, but that he may have used Church Passage, if one questions Harvey.
                  Yes, if PC Harvey lied about patrolling Church Passage then things look different. However, way back at the start of this thread I posted the results of simulating locations based upon the known beats (as they were to be done) and patrol times (as testified to), and based upon the reconstruction nothing in the testimony gets compromised. Meaning, it all lines up and corresponds to what is testified to and the reconstruction doesn't contradict the testimony. We also know there was a light at the end of Church Passage, just before going into Mitre Square, and that Mitre Square wasn't part of PC Harvey's beat. So, given that, PC Harvey would, I think it fair to suggest, only need to patrol Church Passage far enough to be able to cover the dark portion, and once he reaches the lit area, doesn't need to go to the end of it and so would be that much further from where Church Passage empties into Mitre Square. He would also be looking through a lit area into the dark corner, and so would be unlikely to see anything in the square, but as that's not part of his patrol, no big deal to him on that. But, if JtR were in the dark corner, he would have a very good chance of noticing PC Harvey and see that PC Harvy turn around and leave, giving him a good opportunity to flee one of the alternative routes, just before PC Watkins arrives a few minutes later.

                  Basically, I don't think there's any need to suggest PC Harvey didn't patrol the passage as he testifies, other than to open up consideration of Church Passage as an exit route. And yet, if JtR did see PC Harvey turn around and leave, I suppose one could then argue that he now knows that passage won't be patrolled for a bit, so it's a safe option, and he may even see PC Harvey heading away from Church Passage and so then flees the other way, taking him towards Goulston Street. I admit, this is a "just so" story, and it would require some pretty unusual choices to be made by JtR (I would think the instinct would be to flee by one of the other routes rather than follow the police), but it does mean we can't rule it out completely. Evaluation of how probable the above is becomes entirely subjective.

                  - Jeff

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                    Hi Jeff.

                    JtR can briefly hide from PC Harvey, by standing behind the corner of the Taylor & Co. building, within the entranceway of the square.
                    If it happens that Harvey continues into the square, Jack can simply walk away along Mitre street.

                    https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...650#post733650
                    Yes, but the more JtR moves while PC Harvey is facing the square, the greater the chance of his detection (our visual system is quite sensitive to movement), and while we know he wasn't detected, that's hindsight. JtR at the time would, I suspect, be more apt to freeze and try and stay low to minimize his profile, if he was still there of course. But, that's just an opinion not a fact, so feel free to ignore.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                      Yes, but the more JtR moves while PC Harvey is facing the square, the greater the chance of his detection (our visual system is quite sensitive to movement), and while we know he wasn't detected, that's hindsight. JtR at the time would, I suspect, be more apt to freeze and try and stay low to minimize his profile, if he was still there of course. But, that's just an opinion not a fact, so feel free to ignore.

                      - Jeff
                      Why wait until Harvey is facing the square, before moving?
                      We should wonder if the police weren't just offering opinions, but actually had strong evidence for JtR's path from MS to Goulston street, such as blood drop stains on pavements.

                      If the Church Passage exit is accepted (or temporarily considered true, to see where it leads), then we do have to wonder if Jack were actually seen exiting the square, and if he exchanged words with another man at the time, who that man might have been, and why he perceived foul play to have occurred.
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        Why wait until Harvey is facing the square, before moving?
                        We should wonder if the police weren't just offering opinions, but actually had strong evidence for JtR's path from MS to Goulston street, such as blood drop stains on pavements.

                        If the Church Passage exit is accepted (or temporarily considered true, to see where it leads), then we do have to wonder if Jack were actually seen exiting the square, and if he exchanged words with another man at the time, who that man might have been, and why he perceived foul play to have occurred.
                        Well, Havey is facing the square once he enters to start his patrol, so the question is either why wait until Harvey is close to the square before moving, which I agree is a fair question. I would think, though, once he's left the body due to the arrival of a PC, he's not likely to stick around once he's left the square, he's more likely to keep moving on as there's a chance the body will be discovered, which precludes Church Passage. So, the only way Church Passage comes into play is if JtR doesn't notice PC Harvey until Harvey is near the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, and close to the area lit up by the lamp. And if so, he has to wait until PC Harvey at least turns around, and to me, that would be the time to leave via another exit rather than wait for PC Harvey to walk back down Church Passage, but of course, I don't know that as a fact, just seems to me to be the most plausible sequence.

                        There are no reports of blood stains found indicating the path he travelled, but I would think such information would have been documented and we would have some indications of such a clue in the surviving police records. But as nothing like that seems to arise, even in memoirs, I tend to doubt such evidence was available at the time.

                        - Jeff

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                          Sorry, not at the Fire Station, he was the watchman at some roadworks. (I checked the A-Z).
                          Is this a Fire Station as in leave there to put out fires? I know it sounds stupid, but I have just had a funny thought
                          "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                          Comment


                          • With regards to the above, a little more research and it shows it was.

                            I have always been curious why Kate turned left and not right to head 'home' when she was released from the Police Station. I really believe she went to meet someone for whatever reason, for a larger sum of money perhaps?

                            Here is the crazy thoughts, she was already approached by Jack earlier in the evening who gave her a sum money and told her to meet him at the Fire Station in St. James's Place for the other half, she basically spent the money on drink, to much so and she was arrested while pretending to be a Fire Engine, possible link?

                            Second crazy thought, when asked her identity first time at the Police Station, she replied 'Nothing' as told to do so from Jack earlier in the evening. The second link here being the writing on the wall, Kate was the Nothing...basically "The Juwes are the ones that will not be blamed for the murder of Kate".

                            Its just a crazy thought and will be interesting how others more experienced than me can put their knowledge to this.

                            Jim P
                            "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post
                              With regards to the above, a little more research and it shows it was.

                              I have always been curious why Kate turned left and not right to head 'home' when she was released from the Police Station. I really believe she went to meet someone for whatever reason, for a larger sum of money perhaps?

                              Here is the crazy thoughts, she was already approached by Jack earlier in the evening who gave her a sum money and told her to meet him at the Fire Station in St. James's Place for the other half, she basically spent the money on drink, to much so and she was arrested while pretending to be a Fire Engine, possible link?

                              Second crazy thought, when asked her identity first time at the Police Station, she replied 'Nothing' as told to do so from Jack earlier in the evening. The second link here being the writing on the wall, Kate was the Nothing...basically "The Juwes are the ones that will not be blamed for the murder of Kate".

                              Its just a crazy thought and will be interesting how others more experienced than me can put their knowledge to this.

                              Jim P
                              Hi Jim P.

                              Not so crazy, really. To add some real facts to this scenario and a bit of speculation on my part, I came up with this "what if" scenario awhile back.

                              The facts:

                              When returning from hopping in Kent, Kate stayed at the Shoe Lane workhouse on Thursday night, September 27th.
                              (A certain man heavily involved in this case, Albert Bachert, worked for a copperplate engraver (Henry Dix) who had his business at Poppins Court, Fleet Street. A stone's throw from the Shoe Lane workhouse.)

                              On the night Kate was arrested at 29, Aldgate Street, Bachert was at the Three Nuns Hotel. The Three Nuns was a few doors down from 29, Aldgate Street.
                              (Bachert had his nose in everything. He could very well have been on the scene for Kate's arrest. He could possibly have arranged a meeting with her at the Three Nuns after speaking with her near Shoe Lane and got her drunk. Also may have arranged a meeting time and place later that night in Mitre Square while at the Three Nuns with her.)

                              Bachert grew up in Duke Street near Mitre Square.
                              (He would know that area well)

                              Bachert's employer was also located directly across the street from the Central News Agency.
                              (The Dear Boss Letter was received by the Central News Agency on Thursday, September 27th.)

                              Bachert was very involved with Ripper Letters. Some believed he was the author of some but he did receive some as well.

                              With that information, one can formulate a scenario based partly on facts and part speculation.
                              Last edited by jerryd; 02-09-2021, 03:22 AM. Reason: Took out :nothin: reference. Was asked at Bishopsgate

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

                                Here is the crazy thoughts, she was already approached by Jack earlier in the evening who gave her a sum money and told her to meet him at the Fire Station in St. James's Place for the other half, she basically spent the money on drink, to much so and she was arrested while pretending to be a Fire Engine, possible link?

                                Second crazy thought, when asked her identity first time at the Police Station, she replied 'Nothing' as told to do so from Jack earlier in the evening. The second link here being the writing on the wall, Kate was the Nothing...basically "The Juwes are the ones that will not be blamed for the murder of Kate".

                                Its just a crazy thought and will be interesting how others more experienced than me can put their knowledge to this.

                                Jim P
                                Kate pretending to be a fire engine was a later embellishment.

                                Pretty close on "Nothing".

                                Suspect Juwes was really Iuwes ..... International Workingmen Educationals,largely because Juwes isn't spelt with a capital I.

                                Doing well buddy.

                                PS. To the others ...... Henry,oops,Jack obviously knew the police beats and was far to busy cutting to be taking time off hiding around corners.
                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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