Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Scott Nelson]

Unless the passageway can be verified to have provided access between the streets, which it looks like it didn't, then there's no reason to change the interpretation that McN's statement was probably a mistake and refers to PC Smith from Berner Street, and the other stories about PC Watkins are just that - stories.

Who first came up with the interpretation that Macnaghten was confusing PC Smith in Berner Street with another PC witness in or near Mitre Square? It's been the mantra of Ripperology ever since whenever. But maybe there wasn't any confusion??

[JeffHamm]

I think to much is being read into this uncorrobrated statement, if a city Pc had seen a man coming out of the square/near to, at the material time he would have been called as a witness to the inquest and would have had to give a description of the man. Again we see another example of statements police officers made back then being accepted without question.

The reality of the Miter Square murder in my opinion is that Pc Harvey disturbed the killer as he came down Church Passage and the killer made good his escape via Mitre Street, that being said he was lucky not to be seen by Pc Watkins who came back into the square via Mitre Street.

The killer would have had seen and heard Pc Harvey coming down the passage. Pc Harvey would not have been able to see into the square as he was coming down the passage due to the gas lamp at Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage giving the killer time to escape

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

Yes, that's pretty much the scenerio we've been looking at. A curious idea came out of that, which fit with the recreation based upon that idea exactly (JtR flees upon PC Harvey's arrival) which was that JtR goes south on Mitre, then ducked into the Smith's Building passage that some of have suggested connected Mitre Street to Leadenhall Street.

If that passage actually existed and did provide a through way between those streets, then the timing looks right for PC Watkins and JtR to have met in passing there.

There are a number of tales of PC Watkins meeting a man in an ally just before finding the body, and that passage would fit those stories, and the location and timing looked good. However, as you say (and we've discussed), the stories themselves are unverified, told many years after the fact (and not by PC Watkins), and so are probably nothing more than rumours. But if true it would also correspond to that statement by McN. We were collecting versions of statements that might all correspond to the same event, and McN's statement is just one of them.

We've been looking at this to see if there's any substance to suggest the idea may be one of those things worth considering though. The first thing is to verify the passage actually did allow public access from Mitre Street to Leadenhall, otherwise it's a no go. And, we've reached the point where it's looking like that passage did not provide that as it does not show up on either the Goad maps or the OS maps.

As such, it's looking like the location that appeared to fit the general details and might provide a possible location for the event is not going to fit after all. Unless the passageway can be verified to have provided access between the streets, which it looks like it didn't, then there's no reason to change the interpretation that McN's statement was probably a mistake and refers to PC Smith from Berner Street, and the other stories about PC Watkins are just that - stories.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Then there's this from Macnaghten (referring to Kosminski): "This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square." Where did this come from?

I think to much is being read into this uncorrobrated statement, if a city Pc had seen a man coming out of the square/near to, at the material time he would have been called as a witness to the inquest and would have had to give a description of the man. Again we see another example of statements police officers made back then being accepted without question.

The reality of the Miter Square murder in my opinion is that Pc Harvey disturbed the killer as he came down Church Passage and the killer made good his escape via Mitre Street, that being said he was lucky not to be seen by Pc Watkins who came back into the square via Mitre Street.

The killer would have had seen and heard Pc Harvey coming down the passage. Pc Harvey would not have been able to see into the square as he was coming down the passage due to the gas lamp at Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage giving the killer time to escape

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[jerryd]

The Owner/Occupier in 1888 listed for No. 2 Mitre Street (where the archway is in my last post) for the school was John Pound. Again, credit to Debs for the listing.

[jerryd]

Also, there is another archway alley on Mitre Street leading to the school grounds.

[jerryd]

Here are maps from 1878 and 1897 that still show the passage through. I want to add that I have spoken of a man that had connections to John Pound who owned the trunk warehouse at No. 75 Leadenhall and later owned No. 36 Mitre Street. Unfortunately, I can't say whether he would have been allowed access to any of those premises. He was in a partnership with John Pound around the relevant times, IIRC. His name is Franklin Sydney King. The doorstep of his business, David King and Sons, was exactly where the body of Alice McKenzie was found. His childhood residence, is the gate at which Catherine Eddowes was found (#5 Mitre Street). And he is listed on properties at nearby King Street (St James Square) and Goulston Court which was at the back of his Castle Alley business and main offices at nearby Billiter Street. So, even though the passage may not have been a public access through from one side to the other, someone still could have lurked in the Leadenhall side of the archway and even possibly passed through #36 Mitre Street if he had a reason to be there.

[JeffHamm]

The maps that show the connection show no building at all in the gap between 36 and 37 Mitre Street. So unless the Goad building filling that gap is a fantasy (sorry:-)) they are wrong in that respect at least. Could there have been a passageway through that one-storied building which the Goad and OS maps didn’t record correctly? It’s possible, but so unlikely that as far as I’m concerned there wasn’t one.

Yah, the OS maps do seem to record small passages, so it's looking like it didn't go all the way through. That's a shame, as it was getting fun. (Oh, and yes, if those buildings filled in a gap, then they changed reality, so yes, fantasy would be what I would call that too! )

- Jeff

[MrBarnett]

Yah, I'm not sure the passage went all the way through. There was that one map posted earlier, which I reposted, that implies it does, as does the Bacon map you've shown, but others don't seem to show it. The OS 25" one doesn't show a connection to Mitre Street, for example, though it shows a covered passage from Leadenhall into a courtyard area. But if it doesn't/didn't connect to Mitre Street, then there's nothing to see here.

There's just enough to tease, with some maps looking like there is a connection, but others indicate no connection. I tend to agree with you and if it's not there on the Goad and OS maps, it was probably not there. And without it, the whole idea falls apart. Verifying the state of this passage would be a key question to target. Until then, we're building on sand.

- Jeff

The maps that show the connection show no building at all in the gap between 36 and 37 Mitre Street. So unless the Goad building filling that gap is a fantasy (sorry:-)) they are wrong in that respect at least. Could there have been a passageway through that one-storied building which the Goad and OS maps didn’t record correctly? It’s possible, but so unlikely that as far as I’m concerned there wasn’t one.

[JeffHamm]

I believe the alley being referred to was called Smith’s Buildings. I’m doubtful that it provided public access from Leadenhall Street to Mitre Street in 1888, though. The most accurate maps available, the OS and Goad, do not show it being open at the Mitre Street end.

Tantalisingly, Bacon’s map of 1888 does show it open at both ends, but that may well not have been updated from an earlier version. Not every new edition of a map is based on a complete resurveying of the entire area.

I would suggest that if both the OS and Goad are showing one thing and other maps are showing something else, the likelihood is that the other maps are wrong.

The 1887 Goad shows a one story building with a cement or asphalt roof, partially built of wood and ‘b[ric]k arched’. If brick arched had meant a passageway, that would have been shown by means of a curved line such as you see at the entrance from Leadenhall Street and into the central courtyard with the glass roofs. I think the Mitre Street entrance had been infilled with a small shop/workshop by 1887 - probably prior to 1873/4.

There is a press article from 1874 which describes a Jewish School, the Beth Hamedrash, which was situated in ‘a dirty court in Leadenhall Street, having “no thoroughfare”, entitled “Smith’s Buildings”.

Yah, I'm not sure the passage went all the way through. There was that one map posted earlier, which I reposted, that implies it does, as does the Bacon map you've shown, but others don't seem to show it. The OS 25" one doesn't show a connection to Mitre Street, for example, though it shows a covered passage from Leadenhall into a courtyard area. But if it doesn't/didn't connect to Mitre Street, then there's nothing to see here.

There's just enough to tease, with some maps looking like there is a connection, but others indicate no connection. I tend to agree with you and if it's not there on the Goad and OS maps, it was probably not there. And without it, the whole idea falls apart. Verifying the state of this passage would be a key question to target. Until then, we're building on sand.

- Jeff

[MrBarnett]

I’ve got a large-scale (yard to the mile) OS map of the area somewhere, but I can’t find it at the moment. The alley was so small that it’s name is illegible on most maps. This Bacon’s map of 1868 is the best I can do for now.

[MrBarnett]

I believe the alley being referred to was called Smith’s Buildings. I’m doubtful that it provided public access from Leadenhall Street to Mitre Street in 1888, though. The most accurate maps available, the OS and Goad, do not show it being open at the Mitre Street end.

Tantalisingly, Bacon’s map of 1888 does show it open at both ends, but that may well not have been updated from an earlier version. Not every new edition of a map is based on a complete resurveying of the entire area.

I would suggest that if both the OS and Goad are showing one thing and other maps are showing something else, the likelihood is that the other maps are wrong.

The 1887 Goad shows a one story building with a cement or asphalt roof, partially built of wood and ‘b[ric]k arched’. If brick arched had meant a passageway, that would have been shown by means of a curved line such as you see at the entrance from Leadenhall Street and into the central courtyard with the glass roofs. I think the Mitre Street entrance had been infilled with a small shop/workshop by 1887 - probably prior to 1873/4.

There is a press article from 1874 which describes a Jewish School, the Beth Hamedrash, which was situated in ‘a dirty court in Leadenhall Street, having “no thoroughfare”, entitled “Smith’s Buildings”.

[JeffHamm]

Some researchers have suspected that any original documents, police briefings, internal memos, etc., concerning "the man in the passage" with respect to the Eddowes murder (if they existed), were probably destroyed in the WWII bombings. City Police files, largely impacted, were kept separately from Scotland Yard records.

Yah, that's one of the problems we face for all of the questions that get discussed of course given, as you say, a lot of the original documents are lost to us. The hope is, of course, that there is some record surviving, even if it's in the form of personal letters, etc. While those aren't official, of course, it may be all that's left - assuming of course it was ever written down in such a format. But if it was, then the closer to 1888 the better. The McNaughton statement, for example, is tantalising, although it's often suggested that he's misremembered PC Smith's sighting during the Stride case, which is a valid possibility.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

That said, I like what is shaping up here as a new twist on a collection of stories that have generally been set aside as baseless rumour. They still might be, but there is enough here to at least suggest there might be something to them. I certainly have never given these much credence, but with them altogether like this, and with a possible location for where it might have happened emerging without them being involved in creating the simulation, I think I have to change my view and allow there could be something real behind them after all. Not definately of course, but I don't think I can dismiss them entirely anymore.

Some researchers have suspected that any original documents, police briefings, internal memos, etc., concerning "the man in the passage" with respect to the Eddowes murder (if they existed), were probably destroyed in the WWII bombings. City Police files, largely impacted, were kept separately from Scotland Yard records.

[JeffHamm]

"A city of..." should, of course, read "A city PC ..."

and "Lease Hall" should be Leadenhall ...

autocorrect is not my friend, and I will stop going through and looking for errors not of my own origin. Meaning, any further mistakes are best addressed elsewhere, but from me all you will get is "forwarding address unknown"

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Interesting. As we get closer to 1888, the stories are less detailed, but the gist is similar. A city of, sees a man before the body is found by that PC, coming out of a court near mitere square.

These could all fit the current simulation's suggestion of the passage from Mitre Street to Lease hall, though of course I want to repeat, that's not proof, just makes it plausible based on our available evidence.

It changes, though, McNaughton's statement to being being about MS as he said, rather than seeing it as a mistake for PC Smith's sighting in Berner street.

While I find this all quite intrueging, and think one could build a good argument for it to be considered as a possibility (and certainly something to focus on in terms of further basic research - as in looking for original documents with this mentioned- without confirmation from that last step we will be left with another case of an idea in need of more evidence.

That said, I like what is shaping up here as a new twist on a collection of stories that have generally been set aside as baseless rumour. They still might be, but there is enough here to at least suggest there might be something to them. I certainly have never given these much credence, but with them altogether like this, and with a possible location for where it might have happened emerging without them being involved in creating the simulation, I think I have to change my view and allow there could be something real behind them after all. Not definately of course, but I don't think I can dismiss them entirely anymore.

Nice work everyone

Jeff