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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
    PC Langdon of the City force told of the Watkins story (standing aside to let a man pass in an alley shortly before the discovery of the murder) in a retirement article in 1912.

    * City PC E.T. Langdon Retires ( With Article) - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
    Thanks for this Jerry. The later newspaper I can't locate now had more details, including the 7 minute calculation to get from the scene of the crime to the St. James Place alley location where Watkins let the man pass by (not 7 minutes total to complete the beat).

    Jeff, I don't think the story was referring to an alley location off of Mitre and Leadenhall Streets. It's pretty clear to me the location of the encounter was in St. James Place. This has striking parallels to the Stephen White story, as I alluded to.

    One could speculate that Watkins spent extra time in Sugar Bakers Lane or chatting to one of the firemen in St. James square, before resuming his patrol and seeing the man emerge from the passage.

    The "bloodstains" on 36 Mitre Street turned out to be melted wax, so that's a false trail.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    So, I went back and had a look at post 184 of this thread:

    Hi all, I'll apologize for the length of this now. :) Catharine Eddowes was found murdered in Mitre Square at 1:44 am by PC Watkins. He reports having previously patrolled this location at 1:30 am, at which time nothing suspicious was noted. At 1:30 am, Joseph Lawende and two friends (Joseph Levy and Harry Harris) were


    The first map CuriousCat links to does seem to verify that passage went all the way through to Mitre Street, so it appears to have been there.

    I've circled it below, near the bottom 1/3rd .

    This is interesting food for thought.

    - Jeff

    Click image for larger version

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post

    Jeff.

    If you look at the Goads map there are actually two places marked as #36 Mitre Street. One is a Carp (Carpenter Shop I assume) and it also says at that location "Bk Arch". I'm not sure if that is brick arch or back arch, Could it have been a fully/partially arched area leading to the courtyard which then led to the archway of #75 Leadenhall?

    As far as the bloodstains, I'll have to look back at the reports on that. Maybe it was "said" to be paint. I know two doors in Mitre Street had supposed bloodstains.
    Ok, it's worth looking further into. If an ally between the two streets did exist, then this is another possible escape route. And curiously, one that would provide some credence to the Watkin's man. I still think we need to view that story with some caution, though. Simulations are just that, so while consistent with, it's not "proof". If we could trace the Watkin's man back closer to 1888 someday, that would be great. I keep hoping some new information will surface, with things like this in it. Until then, it's all just tantalisingly vague.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
    >>Because it would be the City force who were on alert.<<

    As it would for every possible suspect and the actual killer.

    Decades ago I took one of Rumbelows walks, he made the point, that when he was a policeman people would just hop across Middlesex Road to escape city jurisdiction.
    Everyone would have known that. Hayden was probably a tad further than Goulston and many people think the killer went there.
    Haydon Square was the closest point of exit from the City for someone in Mitre Square. Not everyone would have known that. And going in that direction would have brought you just to the south of Goulston Street.

    I’m pleased to hear that Rumbelow bears out my idea.:-)

    Leave a comment:


  • jerryd
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Hey jd, Happy 2022 buddy.



    Again on my assumptives point, until you have a sighting you have only a sound and ancillary witness statements to try and figure out the source, or cause, of the noise. When you have witnesses that should have been able to hear what is claimed, ....like Fanny not being able to hear a yell or 3 people on the street wearing military type boots( Liz is wearing that style..perhaps BSM and or Piepman would be wearing something similar), ....to hear shuffling about, when she obviously heard the bootsteps that most people assuming is a passing constable. While indoors.
    Hi Michael and Happy New Year to you as well!

    I guess it's not much of an assumption since Morris was stated to have blown his own whistle as he was running up Mitre Street, Harvey hears a whistle while he is presumably a few steps away from Mitre Street and then Harvey runs into Morris.

    I know what you're talking about, though, as I've pointed out in the past the whistle problem in the Alice McKenzie case with PC Andrews. There were huge assumptions about when and where that whistle was blown also.

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrange169
    replied
    >>Because it would be the City force who were on alert.<<

    As it would for every possible suspect and the actual killer.

    Decades ago I took one of Rumbelows walks, he made the point, that when he was a policeman people would just hop across Middlesex Road to escape city jurisdiction.
    Everyone would have known that. Hayden was probably a tad further than Goulston and many people think the killer went there.
    Last edited by drstrange169; 01-12-2022, 02:26 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post

    Hi Gary.

    Both forces would be on alert at that point. Stride was just killed in Met land.
    Hi Jerry,

    A fair distance away in St George E.

    I doubt they were scouring the edges of the City for Strides killer.

    Last edited by MrBarnett; 01-12-2022, 02:14 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • jerryd
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

    Because it would be the City force who were on alert.
    Hi Gary.

    Both forces would be on alert at that point. Stride was just killed in Met land.

    Leave a comment:


  • jerryd
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Thanks. Post 192 with the Goads map is here:

    Hi all, I'll apologize for the length of this now. :) Catharine Eddowes was found murdered in Mitre Square at 1:44 am by PC Watkins. He reports having previously patrolled this location at 1:30 am, at which time nothing suspicious was noted. At 1:30 am, Joseph Lawende and two friends (Joseph Levy and Harry Harris) were


    And the ally corresponds to the grey area with the X in it, where JtR is shown in the above simulation output.

    What I can't see in either map, though, is a way from Mitre Street to the courtyard without going through a building (which would require access), and this only works if JtR could cut through from Mitre Street and out into Leadenahll. So either he cuts through a building, or perhaps this isn't going to work after all.

    And weren't those bloodstains later shown to be paint?

    - Jeff
    Jeff.

    If you look at the Goads map there are actually two places marked as #36 Mitre Street. One is a Carp (Carpenter Shop I assume) and it also says at that location "Bk Arch". I'm not sure if that is brick arch or back arch, Could it have been a fully/partially arched area leading to the courtyard which then led to the archway of #75 Leadenhall?

    As far as the bloodstains, I'll have to look back at the reports on that. Maybe it was "said" to be paint. I know two doors in Mitre Street had supposed bloodstains.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
    >>If you’d just committed a crime in the City police jurisdiction might you not try to exit it at the closest point? Hang on, that might have you heading for Haydon Square where Pickfords once had a depot. Erase that ‘fantasy’ from your thoughts.<<

    Why?
    Because it would be the City force who were on alert.

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrange169
    replied
    >>If you’d just committed a crime in the City police jurisdiction might you not try to exit it at the closest point? Hang on, that might have you heading for Haydon Square where Pickfords once had a depot. Erase that ‘fantasy’ from your thoughts.<<

    Why?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Hey jd, Happy 2022 buddy.



    Again on my assumptives point, until you have a sighting you have only a sound and ancillary witness statements to try and figure out the source, or cause, of the noise. When you have witnesses that should have been able to hear what is claimed, ....like Fanny not being able to hear a yell or 3 people on the street wearing military type boots( Liz is wearing that style..perhaps BSM and or Piepman would be wearing something similar), ....to hear shuffling about, when she obviously heard the bootsteps that most people assuming is a passing constable. While indoors.
    The clubs in around Dukes Place were social - drinking/gambling - clubs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Hey jd, Happy 2022 buddy.

    Originally posted by jerryd View Post

    The club Lawende and Co. were at was not a pub. The Imperial Club was a Jewish socialist club. Sound familiar? (Very good to mention this again jd, and what were the chances that the 2 murders committed that night, the ONLY night 2 are assumed done by JtR, would both have Socialist club members as primary witnesses)?

    PC Harvey said in his testimony he heard George Morris blow the whistle when he was returning toward Duke Street.(He heard "A" whistle Jerry...we have to stop assuming who is actually seen when only sounds are heard. Good examples of this in Berner Street are the presumptions about who was wearing the boots Fanny heard while indoors, whose cart and horse passed her door after 1...and which way, whose whistle blew just after 1, what time Fanny was or wasnt at her door. There are others).

    Last, this is kind of a side issue I have had with the scene of the crime. Off topic a bit to this discussion. Kate was found on her back with her arms by her side and her hands facing palms up. How does that happen? (One way would be if she was carried by her feet and arms and placed there.)
    Again on my assumptives point, until you have a sighting you have only a sound and ancillary witness statements to try and figure out the source, or cause, of the noise. When you have witnesses that should have been able to hear what is claimed, ....like Fanny not being able to hear a yell or 3 people on the street wearing military type boots( Liz is wearing that style..perhaps BSM and or Piepman would be wearing something similar), ....to hear shuffling about, when she obviously heard the bootsteps that most people assuming is a passing constable. While indoors.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrBarnett
    replied
    If you’d just committed a crime in the City police jurisdiction might you not try to exit it at the closest point? Hang on, that might have you heading for Haydon Square where Pickfords once had a depot. Erase that ‘fantasy’ from your thoughts.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
    Post #192 of this thread has a nice Goads map of that alley.
    Thanks. Post 192 with the Goads map is here:

    Hi all, I'll apologize for the length of this now. :) Catharine Eddowes was found murdered in Mitre Square at 1:44 am by PC Watkins. He reports having previously patrolled this location at 1:30 am, at which time nothing suspicious was noted. At 1:30 am, Joseph Lawende and two friends (Joseph Levy and Harry Harris) were


    And the ally corresponds to the grey area with the X in it, where JtR is shown in the above simulation output.

    What I can't see in either map, though, is a way from Mitre Street to the courtyard without going through a building (which would require access), and this only works if JtR could cut through from Mitre Street and out into Leadenahll. So either he cuts through a building, or perhaps this isn't going to work after all.

    And weren't those bloodstains later shown to be paint?

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:

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