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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi Trevor,


    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Some burning questions for one and all to which i am playing devils advocate with

    Why did the killer cut a piece of her apron?
    Because he decided he needed or wanted a piece of material.


    Why did then carry it all the way to GS before depositing it?
    Because when he reached Goulston Street, he decided he no longer needed/wanted this piece of material.


    Why did he deposit at that location?
    Because that is where he was at the point in time he decided he no longer neeed/wanted this piece of material.


    Lets forget the wiping blood stained hands, or a bloody knife, and carrying the organs away in it. If he wanted to clean his hands or his knife he could have done that at the crime scene or if he had cut and take a piece away he could have thrown it away long before he got to GS. and the description of the apron piece is really not consistent with any of the aforementioned.
    So, let's forget about the most logical reason for why a knife wielding murderer, who has just disemboweled someone at speed, during which he's damaged the bowel and likely has fecal matter on his knife and hands, might want a piece of material?

    As for the rest, had he cleaned his hands at the crime scene then he would not need the material, so it seems he didn't have time to clean his hands and/or knife. Given PC Harvey coming down Church Lane, it's far more likely JtR is going to clean up on the run, rather than go "oops, copper coming. wash up first, then it's time to go!"

    Why drop it at Goulston street? Well, if he's not going to keep it, he's got to drop it somewhere. An explanation for why Goulston Street is only required if we think there is something special about that location. I don't see it, but others do think there's a connection.


    And the going home and coming out again is just to ridiculous to even consider

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    Yah, I'm not a big fan of the "go to the bolt hole, then come out again" either. But, we do have the statement that the apron and writing were not there at 2:20 but were there at 2:55. Given it's only about a 5 minute walk between Mitre Square and Goulston Street, the apron would have been missed on the previous pass at 1:45 (as JtR probably only leaves Mitre Square around 1:41 ish, so isn't going to get to Goulston Street until around 1:46 at the latest, and other slightly less direct routes going north on Mitre Street, mean he doesn't get there until 1:48ish). But that still means it should have been found on the 2:20 patrol.

    Either it was missed, and it really was there at 2:20 (which I tend to believe was the case)
    or
    JtR was somewhere else for a long period of time. the most likely being he was "at home", and so that means he must have come out again to drop it off. If he did that, I can't see him living far from Goulston Street.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Jim,

    Personally, I'm pretty sure he was gone by the time PC Watkins arrived. While the crime scene corner was not well lit, it wasn't pitch black either. Dr. Siqueira confirms that there was sufficient light in that corner for JtR to do what he did. PC Harvey's vision, however, would have been interfered with by the lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, which would effectively blind him to what was in the darker area of the square. If JtR moves off when PC Harvey starts up Church Passage, then JtR is pretty much out of PC Harvey's line of sight the whole time (other than when he first moves off) as he gets out to Mitre Street by the time PC Harvey reaches the end of Church Passage. And Mitre Square was not even part of Harvey's beat, so he may not even have had to go all the way to the end of Church Passage, just to the area lit by the lamp, so his view into MS would be limited further. But even if he went to the end, all that would be left to see would be a prone body (low profile) wearing dark clothes, in the dark corner of the square, while looking through a lit up area which would make the dark corner pretty much impenetrable to his vision. So I don't think it's at all unsurprising for PC Harvey not to have noticed anything.

    By the time PC Watkins arrives, though, there's no place for JtR to hide from Watkins or Morris. Watkins is in the square itself, he's not looking through a lit area at the end of a narrow ally that butts onto the square like PC Harvey was. After finding the body and calling upon Morris for assistance, PC Watkins stays in the square while it is Morris who runs out calling for help with his whistle. PC Watkins is securing the crime scene, and there's no place to hide really.

    I can't see any other conclusion other than JtR has already left the area. Now, "leaving the area" could be satisfied by him simply entering one of the buildings on the square rather than fleeing out and beyond ("leaving the area" really is just he's not in the square itself trying to hide in plain sight). However, leaving the area entirely makes it easier to understand how he gets the apron to Goulston Street, while the former (leaving to enter a building adjacent to the square) leaves him trapped in a building with lots of highly active police about, and yet he later is able to slip out and drop off the apron.

    Anyway, again, I have trouble reconciling the evidence with theories that keep JtR in the immediate vicinity of Mitre Square. However, that doesn't mean you have to agree with me, and you may very well feel I'm making too big of an issue about how difficult it would be for JtR to slip by unnoticed, which will reflect our different opinions on how hard that was. I think it would have been very hard, others think not. Neither is a fact, both are opinions. For example, I suppose one could argue that JtR might "mingle with the crowd that was forming" for a bit, then wander off, which might appear less suspicious than someone creeping about trying not to be seen. I believe there are some statements that do imply a bit of a crowd was gathering. Was JtR in that crowd? Did the police check them? and so forth. This, however, requires building upon more and more assumptions since we don't know if those things did or did not happen, and the more assumptions one has to make, the more chances we have to make the wrong one.

    - Jeff
    Some burning questions for one and all to which i am playing devils advocate with

    Why did the killer cut a piece of her apron?

    Why did then carry it all the way to GS before depositing it?

    Why did he deposit at that location?

    Lets forget the wiping blood stained hands, or a bloody knife, and carrying the organs away in it. If he wanted to clean his hands or his knife he could have done that at the crime scene or if he had cut and take a piece away he could have thrown it away long before he got to GS. and the description of the apron piece is really not consistent with any of the aforementioned.

    And the going home and coming out again is just to ridiculous to even consider

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

    Hi Jeff

    I like to play around with different angles; I like to listen to all theories.

    How about he was still in the square at the point of discovery of Kate and slipped out of the square with the commotion that began?

    Jim
    Hi Jim,

    Personally, I'm pretty sure he was gone by the time PC Watkins arrived. While the crime scene corner was not well lit, it wasn't pitch black either. Dr. Siqueira confirms that there was sufficient light in that corner for JtR to do what he did. PC Harvey's vision, however, would have been interfered with by the lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, which would effectively blind him to what was in the darker area of the square. If JtR moves off when PC Harvey starts up Church Passage, then JtR is pretty much out of PC Harvey's line of sight the whole time (other than when he first moves off) as he gets out to Mitre Street by the time PC Harvey reaches the end of Church Passage. And Mitre Square was not even part of Harvey's beat, so he may not even have had to go all the way to the end of Church Passage, just to the area lit by the lamp, so his view into MS would be limited further. But even if he went to the end, all that would be left to see would be a prone body (low profile) wearing dark clothes, in the dark corner of the square, while looking through a lit up area which would make the dark corner pretty much impenetrable to his vision. So I don't think it's at all unsurprising for PC Harvey not to have noticed anything.

    By the time PC Watkins arrives, though, there's no place for JtR to hide from Watkins or Morris. Watkins is in the square itself, he's not looking through a lit area at the end of a narrow ally that butts onto the square like PC Harvey was. After finding the body and calling upon Morris for assistance, PC Watkins stays in the square while it is Morris who runs out calling for help with his whistle. PC Watkins is securing the crime scene, and there's no place to hide really.

    I can't see any other conclusion other than JtR has already left the area. Now, "leaving the area" could be satisfied by him simply entering one of the buildings on the square rather than fleeing out and beyond ("leaving the area" really is just he's not in the square itself trying to hide in plain sight). However, leaving the area entirely makes it easier to understand how he gets the apron to Goulston Street, while the former (leaving to enter a building adjacent to the square) leaves him trapped in a building with lots of highly active police about, and yet he later is able to slip out and drop off the apron.

    Anyway, again, I have trouble reconciling the evidence with theories that keep JtR in the immediate vicinity of Mitre Square. However, that doesn't mean you have to agree with me, and you may very well feel I'm making too big of an issue about how difficult it would be for JtR to slip by unnoticed, which will reflect our different opinions on how hard that was. I think it would have been very hard, others think not. Neither is a fact, both are opinions. For example, I suppose one could argue that JtR might "mingle with the crowd that was forming" for a bit, then wander off, which might appear less suspicious than someone creeping about trying not to be seen. I believe there are some statements that do imply a bit of a crowd was gathering. Was JtR in that crowd? Did the police check them? and so forth. This, however, requires building upon more and more assumptions since we don't know if those things did or did not happen, and the more assumptions one has to make, the more chances we have to make the wrong one.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    Jeff, you had Watkins going down Sugar Bakers Yard and back on one of your earlier diagrams. Do you think that was part of his patrol route?
    Hi Scott,

    From earlier discussions I've been involved with concerning beats (around the Nichols case, but that's neither here nor there at the moment), the descriptions were that dead end side streets and such were also part of the beat. I've included two (in the black circles) that look like they would fit the bill, but in versions where I've left that out, we get pretty much the same thing (as we know PC Watkins beat took him 14 minutes, so if we drop those bits and make the beat a bit shorter, then he patrols at a slightly slower pace. It will have some impact on his estimated position, but he's so far from Mitre Square at the critical times that it's not going to change anything.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	WatkinsBeat.jpg
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ID:	752571

    Anyway, his description of his beat doesn't include the two alleys I've included, but to me it looks like if he didn't patrol them, nobody did (so either they're gated, or just left unpatrolled). From what was discussed in relation to beats during the Nichols thread, it is my belief such alleys would have been included, but he doesn't state he patrols them directly. Also, it was their duty to check doors, etc, so I've had him to a complete circle in St James, otherwise the north west wall doesn't get checked, etc.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Originally posted by DJA View Post

    The timing suggests to me that Jack left 6 Mitre Street when the coast was clear leaving the kidney behind.
    The GSG and apron piece were red herrings to draw the police.
    He was headed towards Mary Kelly's residence,however Joseph Barnett was still living there.
    Dave

    Do you think that each of the C5 squealed on each other or do you think it was Jack just working from one to the other?

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

    Correct me if im wrong but up Middleex St. and along Wentworth St. Is basically making his way to the writing on the wall.

    Halse must of been ahead of Jack, if Halse stuck around in Wentworth a little longer he could of crossed Jacks path...if Jack did write the writing on the wall
    The timing suggests to me that Jack left 6 Mitre Street when the coast was clear leaving the kidney behind.
    The GSG and apron piece were red herrings to draw the police.
    He was headed towards Mary Kelly's residence,however Joseph Barnett was still living there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott Nelson
    replied
    Jeff, you had Watkins going down Sugar Bakers Yard and back on one of your earlier diagrams. Do you think that was part of his patrol route?

    Leave a comment:


  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Juniper4576,

    While nothing can be ruled out, some things become more improbable as they become so much more difficult. If JtR is stuck in the vicinity of Mitre Square, presumably because of the presence of PC Watkins, Morris, and PC Harvey, then how does he eventually get to Goulston Street sometime after 2:20? The Mitre Square area just becomes more and more busy, and the police are actively searching people as they know there's been another murder, etc.

    While we don't know if JtR went straight to Goulston Street, and the apron piece was just missed until 2:20, or if he went to a bolt hole and dropped off the apron after 2:20. It seems to me that if the latter is the case then his bolt hole would have to be far enough away from the activity at Mitre Square for him to be able to leave it and get to Goulston street without drawing the attention of all the police in Mitre Square.

    However, as I say, that's not a fact, it's just my view of things given how easy it appears to have been for JtR to escape given the positions of PC Watkins and PC Harvey. Of course, there could be other patrols that we don't know about, which is a shame. If we could fill them in we might be able to narrow the list of probable flight paths.

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff

    I like to play around with different angles; I like to listen to all theories.

    How about he was still in the square at the point of discovery of Kate and slipped out of the square with the commotion that began?

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

    I was toying with this idea only yesterday, I do believe he got spooked by Harvey, I also believe he was aware that there was people in St. James Place and Watkins was somewhere near by, the question of did he go to ground in the dark in the realms of the square cannot be ruled out
    Hi Juniper4576,

    While nothing can be ruled out, some things become more improbable as they become so much more difficult. If JtR is stuck in the vicinity of Mitre Square, presumably because of the presence of PC Watkins, Morris, and PC Harvey, then how does he eventually get to Goulston Street sometime after 2:20? The Mitre Square area just becomes more and more busy, and the police are actively searching people as they know there's been another murder, etc.

    While we don't know if JtR went straight to Goulston Street, and the apron piece was just missed until 2:20, or if he went to a bolt hole and dropped off the apron after 2:20. It seems to me that if the latter is the case then his bolt hole would have to be far enough away from the activity at Mitre Square for him to be able to leave it and get to Goulston street without drawing the attention of all the police in Mitre Square.

    However, as I say, that's not a fact, it's just my view of things given how easy it appears to have been for JtR to escape given the positions of PC Watkins and PC Harvey. Of course, there could be other patrols that we don't know about, which is a shame. If we could fill them in we might be able to narrow the list of probable flight paths.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Originally posted by DJA View Post
    Daniel Halse, detective officer, City police: On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night. At two minutes to two o'clock on the Sunday morning, when near Aldgate Church, in company with Detectives Outram and Marriott, I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square, subsequently going to the mortuary. I saw the deceased, and noticed that a portion of her apron was missing. I accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre-square, when we heard that a piece of apron had been found in Goulston-street. After visiting Leman-street police-station, I proceeded to Goulston-street, where I saw some chalk-writing on the black facia of the wall. Instructions were given to have the writing photographed, but before it could be done the Metropolitan police stated that they thought the writing might cause a riot or outbreak against the Jews, and it was decided to have it rubbed out, as the people were already bringing out their stalls into the street. When Detective Hunt returned inquiry was made at every door of every tenement of the model dwelling-house, but we gained no tidings of any one who was likely to have been the murderer.
    By Mr. Crawford: At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.

    Read that carefully and consider the timing.
    Correct me if im wrong but up Middleex St. and along Wentworth St. Is basically making his way to the writing on the wall.

    Halse must of been ahead of Jack, if Halse stuck around in Wentworth a little longer he could of crossed Jacks path...if Jack did write the writing on the wall

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Daniel Halse, detective officer, City police: On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night. At two minutes to two o'clock on the Sunday morning, when near Aldgate Church, in company with Detectives Outram and Marriott, I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square, subsequently going to the mortuary. I saw the deceased, and noticed that a portion of her apron was missing. I accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre-square, when we heard that a piece of apron had been found in Goulston-street. After visiting Leman-street police-station, I proceeded to Goulston-street, where I saw some chalk-writing on the black facia of the wall. Instructions were given to have the writing photographed, but before it could be done the Metropolitan police stated that they thought the writing might cause a riot or outbreak against the Jews, and it was decided to have it rubbed out, as the people were already bringing out their stalls into the street. When Detective Hunt returned inquiry was made at every door of every tenement of the model dwelling-house, but we gained no tidings of any one who was likely to have been the murderer.
    By Mr. Crawford: At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.

    Read that carefully and consider the timing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Originally posted by DJA View Post
    Click image for larger version

Name:	Mitre Sq Police Beats.jpg
Views:	226
Size:	78.9 KB
ID:	752552 We know where Watkins and Harvey were ~ 1.45 am.
    Why did it take Jack so long to write the GSG?
    Did he escape Mitre Square or was he trapped there with the lights out!
    I was toying with this idea only yesterday, I do believe he got spooked by Harvey, I also believe he was aware that there was people in St. James Place and Watkins was somewhere near by, the question of did he go to ground in the dark in the realms of the square cannot be ruled out

    Leave a comment:


  • Juniper4576
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian View Post

    Indeed?? It’s not mentioned or commonly known in many circles would you agree??
    Goes back into the streetwise piece, or was it common knowledge but overlooked with confusion of the 'double event' and subsequent piece of apron and the writing on the wall in G St.

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Click image for larger version

Name:	Mitre Sq Police Beats.jpg
Views:	226
Size:	78.9 KB
ID:	752552 We know where Watkins and Harvey were ~ 1.45 am.
    Why did it take Jack so long to write the GSG?
    Did he escape Mitre Square or was he trapped there with the lights out!

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Passageways under Mitre Square. - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century

    Leave a comment:

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