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  • Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

    Hi Jeff

    I like to play around with different angles; I like to listen to all theories.

    How about he was still in the square at the point of discovery of Kate and slipped out of the square with the commotion that began?

    Jim
    Hi Jim,

    Personally, I'm pretty sure he was gone by the time PC Watkins arrived. While the crime scene corner was not well lit, it wasn't pitch black either. Dr. Siqueira confirms that there was sufficient light in that corner for JtR to do what he did. PC Harvey's vision, however, would have been interfered with by the lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, which would effectively blind him to what was in the darker area of the square. If JtR moves off when PC Harvey starts up Church Passage, then JtR is pretty much out of PC Harvey's line of sight the whole time (other than when he first moves off) as he gets out to Mitre Street by the time PC Harvey reaches the end of Church Passage. And Mitre Square was not even part of Harvey's beat, so he may not even have had to go all the way to the end of Church Passage, just to the area lit by the lamp, so his view into MS would be limited further. But even if he went to the end, all that would be left to see would be a prone body (low profile) wearing dark clothes, in the dark corner of the square, while looking through a lit up area which would make the dark corner pretty much impenetrable to his vision. So I don't think it's at all unsurprising for PC Harvey not to have noticed anything.

    By the time PC Watkins arrives, though, there's no place for JtR to hide from Watkins or Morris. Watkins is in the square itself, he's not looking through a lit area at the end of a narrow ally that butts onto the square like PC Harvey was. After finding the body and calling upon Morris for assistance, PC Watkins stays in the square while it is Morris who runs out calling for help with his whistle. PC Watkins is securing the crime scene, and there's no place to hide really.

    I can't see any other conclusion other than JtR has already left the area. Now, "leaving the area" could be satisfied by him simply entering one of the buildings on the square rather than fleeing out and beyond ("leaving the area" really is just he's not in the square itself trying to hide in plain sight). However, leaving the area entirely makes it easier to understand how he gets the apron to Goulston Street, while the former (leaving to enter a building adjacent to the square) leaves him trapped in a building with lots of highly active police about, and yet he later is able to slip out and drop off the apron.

    Anyway, again, I have trouble reconciling the evidence with theories that keep JtR in the immediate vicinity of Mitre Square. However, that doesn't mean you have to agree with me, and you may very well feel I'm making too big of an issue about how difficult it would be for JtR to slip by unnoticed, which will reflect our different opinions on how hard that was. I think it would have been very hard, others think not. Neither is a fact, both are opinions. For example, I suppose one could argue that JtR might "mingle with the crowd that was forming" for a bit, then wander off, which might appear less suspicious than someone creeping about trying not to be seen. I believe there are some statements that do imply a bit of a crowd was gathering. Was JtR in that crowd? Did the police check them? and so forth. This, however, requires building upon more and more assumptions since we don't know if those things did or did not happen, and the more assumptions one has to make, the more chances we have to make the wrong one.

    - Jeff

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

      Hi Jim,

      Personally, I'm pretty sure he was gone by the time PC Watkins arrived. While the crime scene corner was not well lit, it wasn't pitch black either. Dr. Siqueira confirms that there was sufficient light in that corner for JtR to do what he did. PC Harvey's vision, however, would have been interfered with by the lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, which would effectively blind him to what was in the darker area of the square. If JtR moves off when PC Harvey starts up Church Passage, then JtR is pretty much out of PC Harvey's line of sight the whole time (other than when he first moves off) as he gets out to Mitre Street by the time PC Harvey reaches the end of Church Passage. And Mitre Square was not even part of Harvey's beat, so he may not even have had to go all the way to the end of Church Passage, just to the area lit by the lamp, so his view into MS would be limited further. But even if he went to the end, all that would be left to see would be a prone body (low profile) wearing dark clothes, in the dark corner of the square, while looking through a lit up area which would make the dark corner pretty much impenetrable to his vision. So I don't think it's at all unsurprising for PC Harvey not to have noticed anything.

      By the time PC Watkins arrives, though, there's no place for JtR to hide from Watkins or Morris. Watkins is in the square itself, he's not looking through a lit area at the end of a narrow ally that butts onto the square like PC Harvey was. After finding the body and calling upon Morris for assistance, PC Watkins stays in the square while it is Morris who runs out calling for help with his whistle. PC Watkins is securing the crime scene, and there's no place to hide really.

      I can't see any other conclusion other than JtR has already left the area. Now, "leaving the area" could be satisfied by him simply entering one of the buildings on the square rather than fleeing out and beyond ("leaving the area" really is just he's not in the square itself trying to hide in plain sight). However, leaving the area entirely makes it easier to understand how he gets the apron to Goulston Street, while the former (leaving to enter a building adjacent to the square) leaves him trapped in a building with lots of highly active police about, and yet he later is able to slip out and drop off the apron.

      Anyway, again, I have trouble reconciling the evidence with theories that keep JtR in the immediate vicinity of Mitre Square. However, that doesn't mean you have to agree with me, and you may very well feel I'm making too big of an issue about how difficult it would be for JtR to slip by unnoticed, which will reflect our different opinions on how hard that was. I think it would have been very hard, others think not. Neither is a fact, both are opinions. For example, I suppose one could argue that JtR might "mingle with the crowd that was forming" for a bit, then wander off, which might appear less suspicious than someone creeping about trying not to be seen. I believe there are some statements that do imply a bit of a crowd was gathering. Was JtR in that crowd? Did the police check them? and so forth. This, however, requires building upon more and more assumptions since we don't know if those things did or did not happen, and the more assumptions one has to make, the more chances we have to make the wrong one.

      - Jeff
      Some burning questions for one and all to which i am playing devils advocate with

      Why did the killer cut a piece of her apron?

      Why did then carry it all the way to GS before depositing it?

      Why did he deposit at that location?

      Lets forget the wiping blood stained hands, or a bloody knife, and carrying the organs away in it. If he wanted to clean his hands or his knife he could have done that at the crime scene or if he had cut and take a piece away he could have thrown it away long before he got to GS. and the description of the apron piece is really not consistent with any of the aforementioned.

      And the going home and coming out again is just to ridiculous to even consider

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

      Comment


      • Hi Trevor,


        Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

        Some burning questions for one and all to which i am playing devils advocate with

        Why did the killer cut a piece of her apron?
        Because he decided he needed or wanted a piece of material.


        Why did then carry it all the way to GS before depositing it?
        Because when he reached Goulston Street, he decided he no longer needed/wanted this piece of material.


        Why did he deposit at that location?
        Because that is where he was at the point in time he decided he no longer neeed/wanted this piece of material.


        Lets forget the wiping blood stained hands, or a bloody knife, and carrying the organs away in it. If he wanted to clean his hands or his knife he could have done that at the crime scene or if he had cut and take a piece away he could have thrown it away long before he got to GS. and the description of the apron piece is really not consistent with any of the aforementioned.
        So, let's forget about the most logical reason for why a knife wielding murderer, who has just disemboweled someone at speed, during which he's damaged the bowel and likely has fecal matter on his knife and hands, might want a piece of material?

        As for the rest, had he cleaned his hands at the crime scene then he would not need the material, so it seems he didn't have time to clean his hands and/or knife. Given PC Harvey coming down Church Lane, it's far more likely JtR is going to clean up on the run, rather than go "oops, copper coming. wash up first, then it's time to go!"

        Why drop it at Goulston street? Well, if he's not going to keep it, he's got to drop it somewhere. An explanation for why Goulston Street is only required if we think there is something special about that location. I don't see it, but others do think there's a connection.


        And the going home and coming out again is just to ridiculous to even consider

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
        Yah, I'm not a big fan of the "go to the bolt hole, then come out again" either. But, we do have the statement that the apron and writing were not there at 2:20 but were there at 2:55. Given it's only about a 5 minute walk between Mitre Square and Goulston Street, the apron would have been missed on the previous pass at 1:45 (as JtR probably only leaves Mitre Square around 1:41 ish, so isn't going to get to Goulston Street until around 1:46 at the latest, and other slightly less direct routes going north on Mitre Street, mean he doesn't get there until 1:48ish). But that still means it should have been found on the 2:20 patrol.

        Either it was missed, and it really was there at 2:20 (which I tend to believe was the case)
        or
        JtR was somewhere else for a long period of time. the most likely being he was "at home", and so that means he must have come out again to drop it off. If he did that, I can't see him living far from Goulston Street.

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
          Hi Trevor,




          Because he decided he needed or wanted a piece of material.



          Because when he reached Goulston Street, he decided he no longer needed/wanted this piece of material.



          Because that is where he was at the point in time he decided he no longer neeed/wanted this piece of material.



          So, let's forget about the most logical reason for why a knife wielding murderer, who has just disemboweled someone at speed, during which he's damaged the bowel and likely has fecal matter on his knife and hands, might want a piece of material?

          But the apron if she was wearing one would have been less accessible having regards to the fact that her clothes were up above her waist, and so the apron would have been the most difficult of all the items of clothing for the killer to reach., when all her other clothes were more accessible.

          As for the rest, had he cleaned his hands at the crime scene then he would not need the material, so it seems he didn't have time to clean his hands and/or knife. Given PC Harvey coming down Church Lane, it's far more likely JtR is going to clean up on the run, rather than go "oops, copper coming. wash up first, then it's time to go!"

          Why drop it at Goulston street? Well, if he's not going to keep it, he's got to drop it somewhere. An explanation for why Goulston Street is only required if we think there is something special about that location. I don't see it, but others do think there's a connection.

          But why go all that distance with incrimination evidence in his possession. If he had wanted to use the apron piece for any of the reasons mentioned he could have done that quite easily long before he got to Goulston Street and discarded it.

          Yah, I'm not a big fan of the "go to the bolt hole, then come out again" either. But, we do have the statement that the apron and writing were not there at 2:20 but were there at 2:55. Given it's only about a 5 minute walk between Mitre Square and Goulston Street, the apron would have been missed on the previous pass at 1:45 (as JtR probably only leaves Mitre Square around 1:41 ish, so isn't going to get to Goulston Street until around 1:46 at the latest, and other slightly less direct routes going north on Mitre Street, mean he doesn't get there until 1:48ish). But that still means it should have been found on the 2:20 patrol.

          Either it was missed, and it really was there at 2:20 (which I tend to believe was the case)
          or JtR was somewhere else for a long period of time. the most likely being he was "at home", and so that means he must have come out again to drop it off. If he did that, I can't see him living far from Goulston Street.

          - Jeff
          As I have said before the witness statements throughout these murders leave a lot to be desired as to their accuracy

          Two police officers in GS at almost the same time, yet neither see of hear each other, and Pc Long who has heard nothing of the Eddowes murder at that time, just happens to go under this archway and find an old screwed up piece of rag and believes it could be the subject of a crime, when the street were probably littered with rubbish from the market

          Not quite as bad as the officer who was shown and old piece of white apron at the inquest and positively identified it as being from the apron Eddowes was wearing earlier.

          Come on people wise up stop accepting some of these statement in these murders as being the gospel

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

            As I have said before the witness statements throughout these murders leave a lot to be desired as to their accuracy

            Two police officers in GS at almost the same time, yet neither see of hear each other, and Pc Long who has heard nothing of the Eddowes murder at that time, just happens to go under this archway and find an old screwed up piece of rag and believes it could be the subject of a crime, when the street were probably littered with rubbish from the market

            Not quite as bad as the officer who was shown and old piece of white apron at the inquest and positively identified it as being from the apron Eddowes was wearing earlier.

            Come on people wise up stop accepting some of these statement in these murders as being the gospel

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk
            Hi Trevor,

            How accessible the apron was is situational, and if he took it, your assumption it was inaccessible is wrong. Also, we know she was wearing an apron because there are multiple independent statements from people saying she was wearing one, starting from the moment she went out I believe, and including testimony by the police who had her in custody only a short while before she was murdered.

            Also, PC Long, who finds the apron I believe, had heard of the crime at the time he found it at 2:55, and I believe would have been on the look out at 2:20 as well. He might not have been aware around 1:45 (assuming that 35 minutes is a fair estimate of his beat time), but as JtR is likely to have passed a few minutes after PC Long, that's irrelevant.

            Even if he wasn't aware of the murder, the cloth he found had blood on it, enough to be described as one corner wet with it. It is also described as looking like something had been wiped on it, perhaps a knife or hands I think the statement reads. Anyway, those who had seen the apron piece indicate it looked like it had been used in cleaning up.

            I really don't think there's grounds for us, over 130 years later, to suggest we know what it looked like and that their descriptions are wrong.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • I thought I should go and check, and yes, Long states that he had heard of both murders that night by the time he found the apron.
              ...
              [Coroner] Before going did you hear that a murder had been committed? - Yes. It is common knowledge that two murders have been perpetrated.
              ...


              He later clarifies that he had heard of the one in the city (Eddowes), and that there was a rumour of another (Stride). That was at the time he found the apron (2:55) but it's not clear if he knew that at 2:20, leaving open the possibility that your assessment of not noticing a piece of cloth (at 2:20) very reasonable. That's also why I think there's a chance he just missed it at 2:20 and that JtR had passed that way. To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying it proves that the apron piece was there at 2:20, only that it leaves that option on the table so we can't dismiss it.

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                From earlier discussions I've been involved with concerning beats (around the Nichols case, but that's neither here nor there at the moment), the descriptions were that dead end side streets and such were also part of the beat.

                Anyway, his description of his beat doesn't include the two alleys I've included, but to me it looks like if he didn't patrol them, nobody did (so either they're gated, or just left unpatrolled). From what was discussed in relation to beats during the Nichols thread, it is my belief such alleys would have been included, but he doesn't state he patrols them directly. Also, it was their duty to check doors, etc, so I've had him to a complete circle in St James, otherwise the north west wall doesn't get checked, etc.
                If he did go down and back in this alley (Sugar Baker), what time would you estimate Watkins was facing the entrance to St. James Passage in the St. James Square?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                  Of course, there could be other patrols that we don't know about, which is a shame. If we could fill them in we might be able to narrow the list of probable flight paths.
                  - Jeff
                  We know PC Harvey went with PC Holland to Mitre Square. Harvey stated Holland was on patrol across the street. I think that would be south of Aldgate Street? I don't think I've ever looked into Hollands beat.

                  Some don't agree with me, but I feel the rain is important in these timings. It was raining hard enough to keep Lawende and Co. at the Imperial club, so why not affect the patrolling police officers? It's also important, imo, regarding Eddowes. No one ever mentions the rain at the inquest (others than the three amigos) and no mention of Eddowes being soaked at all. That, to me, may indicate she took shelter somewhere on the way to Mitre Square. Or near it, until the rain stopped.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                    If he did go down and back in this alley (Sugar Baker), what time would you estimate Watkins was facing the entrance to St. James Passage in the St. James Square?
                    I've got him just coming back out of that ally at about 1:33:28 and entering into St James square for the first time at 1:33:49.

                    At that point he's in the square so the passage entrance into the square would be visible. I've got him going straight across, then circling around, so in my simulation he doesn't reach the passage way until 1:35:08, but one could create pathways that get him there sooner. The important thing is to ensure he patrols all the "walls" of the square and doesn't leave one out.

                    Hope that's of help.

                    - Jeff
                    Last edited by JeffHamm; 03-07-2021, 03:12 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                      We know PC Harvey went with PC Holland to Mitre Square. Harvey stated Holland was on patrol across the street. I think that would be south of Aldgate Street? I don't think I've ever looked into Hollands beat.

                      Some don't agree with me, but I feel the rain is important in these timings. It was raining hard enough to keep Lawende and Co. at the Imperial club, so why not affect the patrolling police officers? It's also important, imo, regarding Eddowes. No one ever mentions the rain at the inquest (others than the three amigos) and no mention of Eddowes being soaked at all. That, to me, may indicate she took shelter somewhere on the way to Mitre Square. Or near it, until the rain stopped.
                      Hi Jerryd,

                      Yah, PC Holland's beat is not known as far as I'm aware? I've never seen it spelled out. I'm not sure PC Long's is either (though we know it included part of Goulston Street, and that it took him 35 minutes a circuit).

                      The rain, I think, is important. I want to play with the idea of having PC Watkins and/or PC Harvey patrolling at a faster speed, but pausing for 3-5 minutes, and see if things can fit their testimony then. PC Harvey's doesn't do so well, as his estimated speed for "church passage - whistle" is about the same as from the post-office to church passage (I did those calculations earlier and they're in a previous post). If PC Harvey was walking at 2.5 mph (reg. speed), then "Post office - church passage" should be much slower because it would absorb those 3-5 minutes, but the church passage -> whistle speed should be estimated at 2.5. However, both end up being estimated as pretty similar and both are slow. Now, it may be he was slow because of the rain, making it cold and wet and miserable, but it doesn't appear he took shelter anywhere.

                      We don't have enough information to double test Watkins, but his patrol speed at 14 minutes is not far off regulation speed as it is, so it doesn't appear he stood still for 3-5 minutes either.

                      From what it sounds like, there was a sudden cloud burst around 1:30, that lasted for 3-5 minutes. The Church Passage Couple, spotted by Lawende and co, may have been sheltering against the rain between the buildings. That would be better than nothing. I do think the rain is worth considering, because even if one doesn't want to accept the CPC as being Eddowes and JtR, Lawende and Levey also give us the time the rain had let up enough for them to move on. If it was a sudden down pour, then it seems to me that where ever Eddowes and JtR were, they didn't start moving towards Mitre Square until after the rain let up, so sometime between 1:33-1:35.

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                        Hi Jerryd,

                        Yah, PC Holland's beat is not known as far as I'm aware? I've never seen it spelled out. I'm not sure PC Long's is either (though we know it included part of Goulston Street, and that it took him 35 minutes a circuit).

                        The rain, I think, is important. I want to play with the idea of having PC Watkins and/or PC Harvey patrolling at a faster speed, but pausing for 3-5 minutes, and see if things can fit their testimony then. PC Harvey's doesn't do so well, as his estimated speed for "church passage - whistle" is about the same as from the post-office to church passage (I did those calculations earlier and they're in a previous post). If PC Harvey was walking at 2.5 mph (reg. speed), then "Post office - church passage" should be much slower because it would absorb those 3-5 minutes, but the church passage -> whistle speed should be estimated at 2.5. However, both end up being estimated as pretty similar and both are slow. Now, it may be he was slow because of the rain, making it cold and wet and miserable, but it doesn't appear he took shelter anywhere.

                        We don't have enough information to double test Watkins, but his patrol speed at 14 minutes is not far off regulation speed as it is, so it doesn't appear he stood still for 3-5 minutes either.

                        From what it sounds like, there was a sudden cloud burst around 1:30, that lasted for 3-5 minutes. The Church Passage Couple, spotted by Lawende and co, may have been sheltering against the rain between the buildings. That would be better than nothing. I do think the rain is worth considering, because even if one doesn't want to accept the CPC as being Eddowes and JtR, Lawende and Levey also give us the time the rain had let up enough for them to move on. If it was a sudden down pour, then it seems to me that where ever Eddowes and JtR were, they didn't start moving towards Mitre Square until after the rain let up, so sometime between 1:33-1:35.

                        - Jeff
                        Thanks Jeff.

                        Did you include "part of Bury Street" in your Watkins timings?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                          Thanks Jeff.

                          Did you include "part of Bury Street" in your Watkins timings?
                          Hi Jerryd,

                          I think so. Below is the route as I've entered it into the simulation. The part I've thickened would be, I think, "part of Bury Street", as I think Bury Street includes that leg as well as the bit where the name is shown.

                          - Jeff


                          Click image for larger version

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                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

                            Dave

                            Do you think that each of the C5 squealed on each other or do you think it was Jack just working from one to the other?

                            Jim
                            The Five were stalking Jack for blackmail money and there was a bunch of them.
                            Mary Ann Kelly was the instigator, not for the first time.
                            The minute Eddowes left for Kent,Nichols was waiting for Sutton "late at night" outside the London Hospital.
                            Henry Gawen Sutton exhibited traits of a high functioning Asperger.Suspect Nichols panicked him.
                            Eddowes no doubt appreciated the medical help Sutton had afforded her.She was acting as a go between,although she wanted her cut.There is a chance one of her son's was a homosexual prostitute.
                            Reckon Eddowes recruited Stride for a Hanbury Street payoff,but did not make it herself.BS Man was probably muscle.
                            Chapman,like Stride was a neighbor of Mary Ann Kelly's.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                              No one ever mentions the rain at the inquest (others than the three amigos) and no mention of Eddowes being soaked at all. That, to me, may indicate she took shelter somewhere on the way to Mitre Square. Or near it, until the rain stopped.
                              Or in it.

                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                              Comment


                              • Ah yes. Thanks Jeff.

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