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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Originally posted by DJA View Post

    Might have been the same ex employee who posted here.

    Reckon the tunnels/passages have been excavated for the new building.
    Okay!! Makes sense in construction one would say!!

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    • Originally posted by Christian View Post

      I spoke to a k&t employee many years ago who stated there was tunnels-passages underneath Mitre Square ajoining the warehouses!! Which if true would still be there!!
      I wonder if they were searched
      "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

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      • Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

        I wonder if they were searched
        Indeed?? It’s not mentioned or commonly known in many circles would you agree??

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        • Passageways under Mitre Square. - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • Click image for larger version

Name:	Mitre Sq Police Beats.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	78.9 KB
ID:	752552 We know where Watkins and Harvey were ~ 1.45 am.
            Why did it take Jack so long to write the GSG?
            Did he escape Mitre Square or was he trapped there with the lights out!
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • Originally posted by Christian View Post

              Indeed?? It’s not mentioned or commonly known in many circles would you agree??
              Goes back into the streetwise piece, or was it common knowledge but overlooked with confusion of the 'double event' and subsequent piece of apron and the writing on the wall in G St.
              "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                Click image for larger version

Name:	Mitre Sq Police Beats.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	78.9 KB
ID:	752552 We know where Watkins and Harvey were ~ 1.45 am.
                Why did it take Jack so long to write the GSG?
                Did he escape Mitre Square or was he trapped there with the lights out!
                I was toying with this idea only yesterday, I do believe he got spooked by Harvey, I also believe he was aware that there was people in St. James Place and Watkins was somewhere near by, the question of did he go to ground in the dark in the realms of the square cannot be ruled out
                "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                Comment


                • Daniel Halse, detective officer, City police: On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night. At two minutes to two o'clock on the Sunday morning, when near Aldgate Church, in company with Detectives Outram and Marriott, I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square, subsequently going to the mortuary. I saw the deceased, and noticed that a portion of her apron was missing. I accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre-square, when we heard that a piece of apron had been found in Goulston-street. After visiting Leman-street police-station, I proceeded to Goulston-street, where I saw some chalk-writing on the black facia of the wall. Instructions were given to have the writing photographed, but before it could be done the Metropolitan police stated that they thought the writing might cause a riot or outbreak against the Jews, and it was decided to have it rubbed out, as the people were already bringing out their stalls into the street. When Detective Hunt returned inquiry was made at every door of every tenement of the model dwelling-house, but we gained no tidings of any one who was likely to have been the murderer.
                  By Mr. Crawford: At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.

                  Read that carefully and consider the timing.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                    Daniel Halse, detective officer, City police: On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night. At two minutes to two o'clock on the Sunday morning, when near Aldgate Church, in company with Detectives Outram and Marriott, I heard that a woman had been found murdered in Mitre-square. We ran to the spot, and I at once gave instructions for the neighbourhood to be searched and every man stopped and examined. I myself went by way of Middlesex-street into Wentworth-street, where I stopped two men, who, however, gave a satisfactory account of themselves. I came through Goulston-street about twenty minutes past two, and then returned to Mitre-square, subsequently going to the mortuary. I saw the deceased, and noticed that a portion of her apron was missing. I accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre-square, when we heard that a piece of apron had been found in Goulston-street. After visiting Leman-street police-station, I proceeded to Goulston-street, where I saw some chalk-writing on the black facia of the wall. Instructions were given to have the writing photographed, but before it could be done the Metropolitan police stated that they thought the writing might cause a riot or outbreak against the Jews, and it was decided to have it rubbed out, as the people were already bringing out their stalls into the street. When Detective Hunt returned inquiry was made at every door of every tenement of the model dwelling-house, but we gained no tidings of any one who was likely to have been the murderer.
                    By Mr. Crawford: At twenty minutes past two o'clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.

                    Read that carefully and consider the timing.
                    Correct me if im wrong but up Middleex St. and along Wentworth St. Is basically making his way to the writing on the wall.

                    Halse must of been ahead of Jack, if Halse stuck around in Wentworth a little longer he could of crossed Jacks path...if Jack did write the writing on the wall
                    "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

                      I was toying with this idea only yesterday, I do believe he got spooked by Harvey, I also believe he was aware that there was people in St. James Place and Watkins was somewhere near by, the question of did he go to ground in the dark in the realms of the square cannot be ruled out
                      Hi Juniper4576,

                      While nothing can be ruled out, some things become more improbable as they become so much more difficult. If JtR is stuck in the vicinity of Mitre Square, presumably because of the presence of PC Watkins, Morris, and PC Harvey, then how does he eventually get to Goulston Street sometime after 2:20? The Mitre Square area just becomes more and more busy, and the police are actively searching people as they know there's been another murder, etc.

                      While we don't know if JtR went straight to Goulston Street, and the apron piece was just missed until 2:20, or if he went to a bolt hole and dropped off the apron after 2:20. It seems to me that if the latter is the case then his bolt hole would have to be far enough away from the activity at Mitre Square for him to be able to leave it and get to Goulston street without drawing the attention of all the police in Mitre Square.

                      However, as I say, that's not a fact, it's just my view of things given how easy it appears to have been for JtR to escape given the positions of PC Watkins and PC Harvey. Of course, there could be other patrols that we don't know about, which is a shame. If we could fill them in we might be able to narrow the list of probable flight paths.

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                        Hi Juniper4576,

                        While nothing can be ruled out, some things become more improbable as they become so much more difficult. If JtR is stuck in the vicinity of Mitre Square, presumably because of the presence of PC Watkins, Morris, and PC Harvey, then how does he eventually get to Goulston Street sometime after 2:20? The Mitre Square area just becomes more and more busy, and the police are actively searching people as they know there's been another murder, etc.

                        While we don't know if JtR went straight to Goulston Street, and the apron piece was just missed until 2:20, or if he went to a bolt hole and dropped off the apron after 2:20. It seems to me that if the latter is the case then his bolt hole would have to be far enough away from the activity at Mitre Square for him to be able to leave it and get to Goulston street without drawing the attention of all the police in Mitre Square.

                        However, as I say, that's not a fact, it's just my view of things given how easy it appears to have been for JtR to escape given the positions of PC Watkins and PC Harvey. Of course, there could be other patrols that we don't know about, which is a shame. If we could fill them in we might be able to narrow the list of probable flight paths.

                        - Jeff
                        Hi Jeff

                        I like to play around with different angles; I like to listen to all theories.

                        How about he was still in the square at the point of discovery of Kate and slipped out of the square with the commotion that began?

                        Jim
                        "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                        Comment


                        • Jeff, you had Watkins going down Sugar Bakers Yard and back on one of your earlier diagrams. Do you think that was part of his patrol route?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Juniper4576 View Post

                            Correct me if im wrong but up Middleex St. and along Wentworth St. Is basically making his way to the writing on the wall.

                            Halse must of been ahead of Jack, if Halse stuck around in Wentworth a little longer he could of crossed Jacks path...if Jack did write the writing on the wall
                            The timing suggests to me that Jack left 6 Mitre Street when the coast was clear leaving the kidney behind.
                            The GSG and apron piece were red herrings to draw the police.
                            He was headed towards Mary Kelly's residence,however Joseph Barnett was still living there.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                              The timing suggests to me that Jack left 6 Mitre Street when the coast was clear leaving the kidney behind.
                              The GSG and apron piece were red herrings to draw the police.
                              He was headed towards Mary Kelly's residence,however Joseph Barnett was still living there.
                              Dave

                              Do you think that each of the C5 squealed on each other or do you think it was Jack just working from one to the other?

                              Jim
                              "Seek the absence of the normal, and find the presence of the abnormal"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                                Jeff, you had Watkins going down Sugar Bakers Yard and back on one of your earlier diagrams. Do you think that was part of his patrol route?
                                Hi Scott,

                                From earlier discussions I've been involved with concerning beats (around the Nichols case, but that's neither here nor there at the moment), the descriptions were that dead end side streets and such were also part of the beat. I've included two (in the black circles) that look like they would fit the bill, but in versions where I've left that out, we get pretty much the same thing (as we know PC Watkins beat took him 14 minutes, so if we drop those bits and make the beat a bit shorter, then he patrols at a slightly slower pace. It will have some impact on his estimated position, but he's so far from Mitre Square at the critical times that it's not going to change anything.

                                Click image for larger version

Name:	WatkinsBeat.jpg
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ID:	752571

                                Anyway, his description of his beat doesn't include the two alleys I've included, but to me it looks like if he didn't patrol them, nobody did (so either they're gated, or just left unpatrolled). From what was discussed in relation to beats during the Nichols thread, it is my belief such alleys would have been included, but he doesn't state he patrols them directly. Also, it was their duty to check doors, etc, so I've had him to a complete circle in St James, otherwise the north west wall doesn't get checked, etc.

                                - Jeff

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