"I think I know him"

[DJA]

As you say the Bull Inn was near to Aldgate Station, it was not in Mitre Street either.

Neither were in Mitre Street.

Other side of Mitre Street to the station.

The Bull Inn was once the City Terminus of coaches travelling north east.

https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/Aldgate/BullInn.shtml

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry, not sure if you have allowed for another possability that Eddowes entered Houndsditch from Stoney lane, having used New street of Devonshire street. The police report only says she went in direction of Houndsditch after leaving station, that is turning left, not that she went to Houndsditch.
However it still has her within sight of the pub. I am of the view that she and her killer entered by the orange market and were seen.. making Lawende redudent because he saw someone else.
Worth thinking about.


Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes, she could have cut through to Houndsditch from the route you suggest. I agree. There is also a fourth route on my map using the black line and continuing down King Street (past Sams Coffee Shop) to Mitre Street and into the Square on the south side.

[Observer]

I think Dickens may have mentioned more than one inn.
Pickwick Papers Ch.22
"'That 'ere your governor's luggage, Sammy?' inquired Mr. Weller of his affectionate son, as he entered the yard of the Bull Inn, Whitechapel, with a travelling-bag and a small portmanteau."

I believe this was at 25 Aldgate High St, a few doors east of Aldgate Station and a few west of where Eddowes was found drunk outside no. 29. It's a couple of hundred yards from Mitre Square, and doesn't back onto it.
Just a thought, but it would have made a good base to keep watch on any Butcher's Row suspects during it's brief reopening 88-90.

Hi Joshua

Wasn't aware of that particular reference, thanks. As you say the Bull Inn was near to Aldgate Station, it was not in Mitre Street either. Yes I suppose it would have made a good base to keep watch on any Butcher's row suspects.

[DJA]

I've no doubt whatsoever that if the investigators of the Whitechapel murders ever considered that Kate Eddowes was killed in a location other than where she was found it was only for a split second. The blood evidence proves beyond doubt that she was murdered where she was found.

Quite possibly asphyxiated nearby.

[Elamarna]

Hi Observer,

I've drawn three possible routes from the police station heading down Houndsditch. All three take her by the Rose Coffee Shop at 38 Houndsditch which is off the map slightly to the left from where I started all three routes. As you can see the last (corner) building at the corner of Houndsditch and Duke Street is #27.

The red and black routes seem the two most likely to get to the square in the quickest amount of time in my opinion. As far as the police checking out the Rose coffee house, the point is that it may have been used by the police at the time for housing witnesses or possibly other surveillance type activity. Of course that is pure speculation, but it was known the following year (1889) to be used for just that purpose by Inspector Abberline to sequester Algernon Allies in the Cleveland Street Scandal case.

Hi Jerry, not sure if you have allowed for another possability that Eddowes entered Houndsditch from Stoney lane, having used New street of Devonshire street. The police report only says she went in direction of Houndsditch after leaving station, that is turning left, not that she went to Houndsditch.
However it still has her within sight of the pub. I am of the view that she and her killer entered by the orange market and were seen.. making Lawende redudent because he saw someone else.
Worth thinking about.


Steve

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry

Saint James Place opened onto Duke Street, not Houndsditch. Houndsditch was one street away north of Duke Street. Kate Eddowes was skint when she left Bishopgate Police Station, I doubt she visited any of those coffee shops, (provided any of them were open) in the area, on her way to Duke Street. I would gamble on the fact that the police checked out those coffee shops(should they have been open) to see if she had visited them on the night in question

Hi Observer,

I've drawn three possible routes from the police station heading down Houndsditch. All three take her by the Rose Coffee Shop at 38 Houndsditch which is off the map slightly to the left from where I started all three routes. As you can see the last (corner) building at the corner of Houndsditch and Duke Street is #27.

The red and black routes seem the two most likely to get to the square in the quickest amount of time in my opinion. As far as the police checking out the Rose coffee house, the point is that it may have been used by the police at the time for housing witnesses or possibly other surveillance type activity. Of course that is pure speculation, but it was known the following year (1889) to be used for just that purpose by Inspector Abberline to sequester Algernon Allies in the Cleveland Street Scandal case.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Bull Hotel, a coaching Inn mentioned in Pickwick Papers is located in Rochester Kent. How it could have reopened in Mitre Street briefly during the Ripper's reign of terror is beyond me. Also which station are you reoffering to? Aldgate Station was nowhere near Mitre Street.

I think Dickens may have mentioned more than one inn.
Pickwick Papers Ch.22
"'That 'ere your governor's luggage, Sammy?' inquired Mr. Weller of his affectionate son, as he entered the yard of the Bull Inn, Whitechapel, with a travelling-bag and a small portmanteau."

I believe this was at 25 Aldgate High St, a few doors east of Aldgate Station and a few west of where Eddowes was found drunk outside no. 29. It's a couple of hundred yards from Mitre Square, and doesn't back onto it.
Just a thought, but it would have made a good base to keep watch on any Butcher's Row suspects during it's brief reopening 88-90.

[Observer]

Hi Michael,

Yes, I see what you are getting at. The Rose and Crown Coffee Shop just outside of St James place on Houndsditch would seem to make more sense at this point. It was known to be used a few months later by Abberline to hold a witness in the Cleveland Street Scandal. Kate would have passed right by it on her route to Mitre Square. That would also put James Blenkinsop's testimony into the spotlight more due to the direction the man asking about the couple was coming from. Blenkingsop admitted he had "seen some people pass".

Hi Jerry

Saint James Place opened onto Duke Street, not Houndsditch. Houndsditch was one street away north of Duke Street. Kate Eddowes was skint when she left Bishopgate Police Station, I doubt she visited any of those coffee shops, (provided any of them were open) in the area, on her way to Duke Street. I would gamble on the fact that the police checked out those coffee shops(should they have been open) to see if she had visited them on the night in question

[Observer]

Thanks jerry, I'm sure you've seen why this line of questioning in my other responses.

If your "line of questioning" revolves around the notion that there was a walkway between a public house/coffee shop which lead into Mitre Square, and Kate Eddowes was murdered in said public house/coffee shop and then transported to Mite Square, then you're sadly mistaken.

[Observer]

Thanks jerry. I think its likely that Sailor Man/Kate was a mistake sighting, and even Lawende himself didn't think he could recognize the man a week later. If thats the case, then from Kates release and arrival near the square until almost 1:45 allows for plenty of time for the murder and the mutilations. And perhaps, a changed venue for the corpse. If she did have a meeting that night it might makes sense that it would be indoors somewhere. The contemporary police even speculated aloud about her being dropped there.

I've no doubt whatsoever that if the investigators of the Whitechapel murders ever considered that Kate Eddowes was killed in a location other than where she was found it was only for a split second. The blood evidence proves beyond doubt that she was murdered where she was found.

[Observer]

At the time of the Ripper murders there were no pubs/Inns which were situated in Mitre Square. Also, there were no lanes, walkways or entrances leading from Mitre Square into a public house, or coffee shop.

[Observer]

classic misdirection

It was an old coaching inn which was mentioned in The Pickwick Papers.
Reopened briefly around the time of Jack's reign of terror.
It was on the other side of Mitre Street to the station.
Popular hotel name.

The Bull Hotel, a coaching Inn mentioned in Pickwick Papers is located in Rochester Kent. How it could have reopened in Mitre Street briefly during the Ripper's reign of terror is beyond me. Also which station are you reoffering to? Aldgate Station was nowhere near Mitre Street.

[DJA]

Walter Izant,a licensed victualler,might have been running the Rose Coffee House,38 Houndsditch in 1891 apparently.

Someone might want to check that.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
This may be a silly question, but are you sure that is the correct Rose and Crown? I only ask as it's shown as a public house on the Goad map, i.e. Licensed to sell alcohol, rather than Rest([aurant] as is the (disused in 88) coffee shop at 7 Mitre St.
Also, it seems strange to me that the Met police would ensconce a witness in City police territory.
I know very little detail about the Cleveland St business though, so I'd be happy to learn more.

Hi Joshua,

Here is the extract from the testimony of Algernon Allies during the trial:

Mr Avory- From the time of your coming up to London to give evidence did you live in lodgings under the observation of the police? Witness- Yes.

Mr. Vaughn- Where? Witness- the Rose Coffee House, Hounsditch.

[DJA]

Wasn't the Bull Inn on Aldgate High street, near Aldgate Station? Bull Inn Yard certainly extends along the railway tracks there. Or was there another pub of the same name?

It was an old coaching inn which was mentioned in The Pickwick Papers.
Reopened briefly around the time of Jack's reign of terror.
It was on the other side of Mitre Street to the station.
Popular hotel name.