"I think I know him"

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes, I see what you are getting at. The Rose and Crown Coffee Shop just outside of St James place on Houndsditch would seem to make more sense at this point. It was known to be used a few months later by Abberline to hold a witness in the Cleveland Street Scandal. Kate would have passed right by it on her route to Mitre Square. That would also put James Blenkinsop's testimony into the spotlight more due to the direction the man asking about the couple was coming from. Blenkingsop admitted he had "seen some people pass".

Hi Jerry,
This may be a silly question, but are you sure that is the correct Rose and Crown? I only ask as it's shown as a public house on the Goad map, i.e. Licensed to sell alcohol, rather than Rest([aurant] as is the (disused in 88) coffee shop at 7 Mitre St.
Also, it seems strange to me that the Met police would ensconce a witness in City police territory.
I know very little detail about the Cleveland St business though, so I'd be happy to learn more.

[Joshua Rogan]

The lane way of the Bull Inn used to extend into Mitre Square.

Reckon your press account refers to a pub outside of the actual Mitre Square as we understand it these days.

Wasn't the Bull Inn on Aldgate High street, near Aldgate Station? Bull Inn Yard certainly extends along the railway tracks there. Or was there another pub of the same name?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Yes, I see what you are getting at. The Rose and Crown Coffee Shop just outside of St James place on Houndsditch would seem to make more sense at this point. It was known to be used a few months later by Abberline to hold a witness in the Cleveland Street Scandal. Kate would have passed right by it on her route to Mitre Square. That would also put James Blenkinsop's testimony into the spotlight more due to the direction the man asking about the couple was coming from. Blenkingsop admitted he had "seen some people pass".

Thanks jerry. I think its likely that Sailor Man/Kate was a mistake sighting, and even Lawende himself didn't think he could recognize the man a week later. If thats the case, then from Kates release and arrival near the square until almost 1:45 allows for plenty of time for the murder and the mutilations. And perhaps, a changed venue for the corpse. If she did have a meeting that night it might makes sense that it would be indoors somewhere. The contemporary police even speculated aloud about her being dropped there.

[jerryd]

Thanks jerry, I'm sure you've seen why this line of questioning in my other responses.

Hi Michael,

Yes, I see what you are getting at. The Rose and Crown Coffee Shop just outside of St James place on Houndsditch would seem to make more sense at this point. It was known to be used a few months later by Abberline to hold a witness in the Cleveland Street Scandal. Kate would have passed right by it on her route to Mitre Square. That would also put James Blenkinsop's testimony into the spotlight more due to the direction the man asking about the couple was coming from. Blenkingsop admitted he had "seen some people pass".

[Michael W Richards]

The lane way of the Bull Inn used to extend into Mitre Square.

Reckon your press account refers to a pub outside of the actual Mitre Square as we understand it these days.

Thanks DJA.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

There were several coffee houses in the area but none in Mitre Square to my recollection. Sams Coffee House was at #9 King Street next door to the buildings I mentioned Frankilin King and his father had a lease on. This would actually be St James Square but someone could have confused it for Mitre Square, I guess. I believe at one time #6 and #7 Mitre Street were used as coffee houses as well. Not sure exactly when though.

Thanks jerry, I'm sure you've seen why this line of questioning in my other responses.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike,

Apparently Phillips thought there was an effort to decapitate the head too..." The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck."... unless there is another way to interpret that.

Also, the "consequence of haste" could apply to Mitre Square too, maybe even more so...could it not? Dr. Brown apparently seemed to think so as he carried out an experiment on how long it would take to excise a human uterus. Did you know that?

On the police investigation following the Chapman murder, who were the medically qualified suspects they found outside of this one unnamed medical student?

Hi Hunter,

I believe Mr Sugden's book specifically names three that were considered worthy of looking into, if I'm not mistaken I believe Puckridge was one of them. As far as the timing inside the square, I'm afraid I'm very skeptical that from the sighting with Sailor Man to the dark corner inside the square and all the subsequent actions taken in there, the sighting at 1:35 was probably not of Kate. Haste is one thing, if the sighting and timing of the officers was correct, that would be speed surgery in almost pure dark conditions. I think its possible she may have been killed inside one of those unoccupied buildings in the square. I'm sure you recall how puzzled they were about the apparent lack of blood...although they later noted her soaked clothing when she was moved. They wondered aloud at the time whether she was killed elsewhere, and dropped in that spot.

[Michael W Richards]

Never been able to identify one in the square, no obvious place for one that I can see.
There is a public house however on the glad map in st James place.
I have always assumed the report was mistaken. Do you have any information or suggestions Michael?

Steve

Just curious really Steve, Ive read that Mitre Square had quite an interesting past and Ive wondered whether a pub inside that square might have been linked to one or more of the victims.

[DJA]

Nope

[Pcdunn]

Isn't there talk in the papers of McCarthy's shop/cafe which was often "open until two or three in the morning, and sometimes all night"? Could this place have been mistakenly referred to as a "public house" in a news article, thus explaining why no tavern shows on the maps?

[DJA]

Ok, you folks are obviously very Mitre Square savy ...so where was the pub that was located before 1888 that was inside Mitre Square? Its referenced in at least one press account, I believe when they were seeking out dynamiters.

The lane way of the Bull Inn used to extend into Mitre Square.

Reckon your press account refers to a pub outside of the actual Mitre Square as we understand it these days.

[jerryd]

Ok, you folks are obviously very Mitre Square savy ...so where was the pub that was located before 1888 that was inside Mitre Square? Its referenced in at least one press account, I believe when they were seeking out dynamiters.

Michael,

There were several coffee houses in the area but none in Mitre Square to my recollection. Sams Coffee House was at #9 King Street next door to the buildings I mentioned Frankilin King and his father had a lease on. This would actually be St James Square but someone could have confused it for Mitre Square, I guess. I believe at one time #6 and #7 Mitre Street were used as coffee houses as well. Not sure exactly when though.

[Hunter]

Hi Sam,

...As for severing the head, that's speculation, the nicks indicate the cuts were very deep..enough to nick the spine, but that's not an indication necessarily that the removal of the head was sought. The flaps were likely so the access could be quick, he was in a precarious spot in that yard, though better off that in Bucks Row. "In the consequence of haste" should address some of your concerns about his skill Sam. It evidently didn't dissuade the investigators from seeking specifically medically trained people for suspects. They in fact found some candidates too, as I'm sure youre aware.

Hello Mike,

Apparently Phillips thought there was an effort to decapitate the head too..." The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck."... unless there is another way to interpret that.

Also, the "consequence of haste" could apply to Mitre Square too, maybe even more so...could it not? Dr. Brown apparently seemed to think so as he carried out an experiment on how long it would take to excise a human uterus. Did you know that?

On the police investigation following the Chapman murder, who were the medically qualified suspects they found outside of this one unnamed medical student?

[Elamarna]

Ok, you folks are obviously very Mitre Square savy ...so where was the pub that was located before 1888 that was inside Mitre Square? Its referenced in at least one press account, I believe when they were seeking out dynamiters.

Never been able to identify one in the square, no obvious place for one that I can see.
There is a public house however on the glad map in st James place.
I have always assumed the report was mistaken. Do you have any information or suggestions Michael?

Steve

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, you folks are obviously very Mitre Square savy ...so where was the pub that was located before 1888 that was inside Mitre Square? Its referenced in at least one press account, I believe when they were seeking out dynamiters.