"I think I know him"

[DJA]

Hard to believe not a single one of these murders had a witness or someone who could have incriminated the murderer of at least one...but here we are.

Reckon Elizabeth Long's shabby genteel man, who was a a little "taller" than Annie Chapman, was the one true sighting.

If a "little taller" meant about three inches,that tallies with the height of the later GSG.
Again, which anatomically trained person would be carrying chalk at the start of the Michaelmas Term!

Back to 29 Hanbury Street.
The conversation between the two that Long saw and heard was loud ......he,"Will you", she, "Yes".
Doesn't sound like a proposition for sex at around 5.30am.
Precede it with ..... she,"I'm going to dob you in to the cops" and the scenario becomes clearer.
Prompt strangulation and Annie is dragged through the corridor and out the back for dissection.
The three bruises tend to support that.

Dr. Phillips testified that he could not have performed all the injuries in under 15 minutes.
Have another look at Eddowes' injuries and possible time frames.
14 minutes between Watkin's visits.

One of the keyboard experts,especially of the Jack had no anatomical knowledge school, might be able to inform us of how this was possible.

Of those who claim more expertise than Wynne Baxter,a life Governor of The London Hospital from 1889 , with FRMS and FGS to go with his LL.B,kindly state your qualifications.

[DJA]

The square was very sparsely populated, and the night-watchman might well have been busy (wasn't he sweeping up when Watkins alerted him... or did I dream that?). Also, Mitre Square was a public right of way, so the sound of someone's boots wouldn't have been in the least bit noteworthy.

Another press report highlighted the irony of a claim Morris had made to a police officer earlier that evening:

The strangest part of the whole thing was that he did not hear the slightest sound. As a rule he could hear the footsteps of the policeman as he passed on his beat every quarter of an hour, so the it appeared impossible that the woman could have uttered any sound without his detecting it. It was only on that night that he remarked to some policeman that he wished the "butcher" would come round Mitre square, and he would give him a doing; yet the "butcher" had come, and he was perfectly ignorant of it.

[martin wilson]

I do wonder about Eddowes having her hand on the man's chest as reported by Lawende.
If Lawende, Harris and Levy saw him, then he saw them. And he may have wanted to be off. Why was that?
Eddowes stopped him, sort of a "don't go" gesture.
Understandable, he was a potential paying customer.

Obviously she should have let him.

[Abby Normal]

Hard to believe not a single one of these murders had a witness or someone who could have incriminated the murderer of at least one...but here we are.

Hi hunter
Israel Schwartz probably witnessed the murder of stride and apparently someone implicated Kosminski as the ripper with the possibility of him being positively identified by Lawende.

But alas were only left with probabilities and possibilities.

[Sam Flynn]

The mens boots she was wearing would have echoed throughout that little square at that time of the night.

The square was very sparsely populated, and the night-watchman might well have been busy (wasn't he sweeping up when Watkins alerted him... or did I dream that?). Also, Mitre Square was a public right of way, so the sound of someone's boots wouldn't have been in the least bit noteworthy.

[DJA]

Hard to believe Eddowes could've been strangled or slammed to the floor without the nearby nightwatchman hearing a sound.

The mens boots she was wearing would have echoed throughout that little square at that time of the night.

[Hunter]

Hard to believe Eddowes could've been strangled or slammed to the floor without the nearby nightwatchman hearing a sound.

Hard to believe not a single one of these murders had a witness or someone who could have incriminated the murderer of at least one...but here we are.

[DJA]

It certainly wasn't asphyxiation since that would have produced unmistakeable signs that the medical examiners really could not have missed.
Manual strangulation can choke off the supply of blood to the brain and cause unconsciousness within mere seconds. It is possible for this to be done without leaving particularly noticeable marks since the force required need only compress the blood vessels for seconds and need not break anything. I have always suspected the Whitechapel murderer used some type of choke hold to get his victims to pass out silently before cutting their throats - hence the lack of noise in the attacks and lack of defensive wounds on the victims, except perhaps Mary Kelly who may have had some defensive wounds on her hands. Given that the simplest type of choke hold to knock someone out is done with the attacker standing behind the victim, it might be that Mary Kelly's killer had a more difficult time trying to strangle her as she lay in the bed.

Pretty much agree with you.

Remember Jack only had the bare 14 minutes between Watkin's beats,and he had to make himself scarce as well.
Watkin's beat usually varied between 12 an 14 minutes.

If anyone thinks Lawende saw Jack and Kate at 1.35am,they are dreaming.
His testimony at the Inquest differs a bit from the initial police report.
That would have left Jack less than 9 minutes to get Kate in position,do his dirty work and disappear.

[Harry D]

Hard to believe Eddowes could've been strangled or slammed to the floor without the nearby nightwatchman hearing a sound.

[Abby Normal]

It certainly wasn't asphyxiation since that would have produced unmistakeable signs that the medical examiners really could not have missed.
Manual strangulation can choke off the supply of blood to the brain and cause unconsciousness within mere seconds. It is possible for this to be done without leaving particularly noticeable marks since the force required need only compress the blood vessels for seconds and need not break anything. I have always suspected the Whitechapel murderer used some type of choke hold to get his victims to pass out silently before cutting their throats - hence the lack of noise in the attacks and lack of defensive wounds on the victims, except perhaps Mary Kelly who may have had some defensive wounds on her hands. Given that the simplest type of choke hold to knock someone out is done with the attacker standing behind the victim, it might be that Mary Kelly's killer had a more difficult time trying to strangle her as she lay in the bed.

bingo. blood chokes you only need to compress the arteries in the neck for about 10 seconds before you start to go out. (don't try this at home, but when we were kids we do it to our selves). MMA fighters use this technique to "choke someone out".

However, I think the ripper used strangulation (and or blows to the head-whatever the mood/situation was), to initially incapacitate his victims and bring them to the ground.

with stride I think he may have, as hunter said, basically just cut her throat first, due to the unusual circs that time.

[Qlder]

asphyxiation/strangulation

It certainly wasn't asphyxiation since that would have produced unmistakeable signs that the medical examiners really could not have missed.
Manual strangulation can choke off the supply of blood to the brain and cause unconsciousness within mere seconds. It is possible for this to be done without leaving particularly noticeable marks since the force required need only compress the blood vessels for seconds and need not break anything. I have always suspected the Whitechapel murderer used some type of choke hold to get his victims to pass out silently before cutting their throats - hence the lack of noise in the attacks and lack of defensive wounds on the victims, except perhaps Mary Kelly who may have had some defensive wounds on her hands. Given that the simplest type of choke hold to knock someone out is done with the attacker standing behind the victim, it might be that Mary Kelly's killer had a more difficult time trying to strangle her as she lay in the bed.

[DJA]

I never really contested the thought of strangulation.

However, strangled elsewhere then carried to the spot is taking things too far.
Not that it couldn't have happened that way, but it is guesswork with nothing to support it. So, why is it necessary to suggest it?

Happy New Year!

Considering Watkin's beat,how do you explain the uncanny timing?
Not just the 14 minutes for everything,but also no relevant sightings in Duke Street, Mitre Street or St. James Place.

[Hunter]

I never really contested the thought of strangulation.
The blood spatter/spray evidence dictated she was not on her feet when the throat was cut, and there was no indication of a bruise to her head, as we would expect if she were knocked unconscious. Equally no indication of drugs being used, or poison.
So, unless anyone chooses to advance the theory it was her choice to consciously lay down on her back, then asphyxiation/strangulation are the only obvious choices.
We do not need evidence to accept the only viable conclusion.

Hi Jon,

Perhaps simply overpowering her and throwing her to the pavement and then cutting her throat is a viable conclusion. Brown does mention a recent bruise on the back of the left hand, some marks below the left ear and Foster's sketch details a rather large abrasion on the left cheek. She was rather small.

Actually, there were no visable signs of asphyxiation in either Stride or Eddowes and no posthulating by the medicos of that possibility at the time. They both were apparently quickly taken down.

[Sam Flynn]

However, strangled elsewhere then carried to the spot is taking things too far.

Indeed, especially when one considers that the spot in question was very dark; surely the darkest corner of Mitre Square wouldn't be the kind of place you'd choose to take a strangled body for evisceration. On the other hand, what better place to catch your (still living, breathing) victim off-guard with a surprise attack?

[Wickerman]

.... Getting back to Kate Eddowes. I doubt whether she was rendered unconscious at a place removed from where she was found, and then carried into Mitre Square to be mutilated, and her throat cut.

True.

I never really contested the thought of strangulation.
The blood spatter/spray evidence dictated she was not on her feet when the throat was cut, and there was no indication of a bruise to her head, as we would expect if she were knocked unconscious. Equally no indication of drugs being used, or poison.
So, unless anyone chooses to advance the theory it was her choice to consciously lay down on her back, then asphyxiation/strangulation are the only obvious choices.
We do not need evidence to accept the only viable conclusion.

However, strangled elsewhere then carried to the spot is taking things too far.
Not that it couldn't have happened that way, but it is guesswork with nothing to support it. So, why is it necessary to suggest it?