"I think I know him"

[jerryd]

Looks like some H Division coppers stepped up, too.

Times (London)
September 17, 1888
THE WHITECHAPEL MURDERS.

So anxious are the police to bring home the crime to the murderer that the members of the H Division have actually subscribed amongst themselves a sum of £50 to supplement the reward of £100 offered by Mr. Samuel Montagu, M.P. The money will be paid to anyone who may confidentially place themselves in communication with the authorities at any of the local police stations. Since this report has spread amongst the frequenters of the common lodging houses, the secrecy hitherto observed by some men and women who knew Annie Chapman has been partially broken. Two of her associates have come forward and made statements as to the woman's movements during the week prior to her death.

[jerryd]

The MP for Whitechapel, Mr Montagu, offered to pay a reward of £100 on 10th Sept. Although the offer was turned down by the Home Secretary, it had already been published in the papers on 12th Sept so he felt obliged to honour it anyway. Letter to Warren, 18th Sept;

"Under these circumstances it is too late to withdraw my offer & in case information is received, leading to conviction of the murderer or murderers, I must pay £100. to the person entitled to receive it."

Presumably this is the reward on the poster outside Miller's Court.


.....perhaps it was Montagu who killed Eddowes so he didn't have to pay out?

Thanks Joshua,

I guess this reward was out there at the time as well.

Times
September 17th 1888.

ONE HUNDRED POUNDS REWARD - The Whitechapel Murder

The proprietor of the Illustrated Police News offers the above reward to any person who will give information as to the perpetrator of the crime of the murder of Mrs. Chapman. The above reward will be paid upon conviction of the murderer. Office, No. 286, Strand.

[DJA]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Montagu,_1st_Baron_Swaythling

Tried to offer ...... did not accept the offer .......

[Joshua Rogan]

As far as I know, Jerry, there was no reward in place until after Eddowes' death - another reason why I suspect that the story of her returning to London to claim the (non-existent) reward was apocryphal.

The MP for Whitechapel, Mr Montagu, offered to pay a reward of £100 on 10th Sept. Although the offer was turned down by the Home Secretary, it had already been published in the papers on 12th Sept so he felt obliged to honour it anyway. Letter to Warren, 18th Sept;

"Under these circumstances it is too late to withdraw my offer & in case information is received, leading to conviction of the murderer or murderers, I must pay £100. to the person entitled to receive it."

Presumably this is the reward on the poster outside Miller's Court.


.....perhaps it was Montagu who killed Eddowes so he didn't have to pay out?

[Sam Flynn]

As far as I know, Jerry, there was no reward in place until after Eddowes' death - another reason why I suspect that the story of her returning to London to claim the (non-existent) reward was apocryphal.

[jerryd]

My question is this. What reward was she seeking? Any reward requested to the government was turned down at this point. Wasn't it? That is part of the reason the Vigilance Committee was formed and they began raising money in September to offer a reward of their own. It wasn't until the end part of September that they raised 50 pounds and offered their reward.

If I have my information correct here it raises a couple of points.

1) Did Catherine know before she left for hop picking about any reward? Maybe she heard of discussions amongst Vigilance Committee members who were raising the money before she left?
2) Upon returning from hop picking did she hear about the reward and due to a desperate need for money at the time she mentioned to the lodging house keeper she was back to collect the reward?

Guess I need to go back and look at the exact dates the VC reward was posted and offered.

[Joshua Rogan]

What would give Eddowes the idea that a sailor, a hop-picker or indeed anyone she knew would be willing or able to pay her substantially more for her silence than the extraordinary sum of £500?

[Michael W Richards]

If that was the case Mike, I`d say Sailor Man was waiting for her in the shadows outside Bishopsgate Police station.

The problem with that Jon is that for it to have been Sailor man as the culprit...with her and Kate being seen by Lawende and the other 2 wise men around 1:35, there is very little time to get her into the square, to do all he did, and to still be able to leave before Watkins pass. Nigh impossible actually. I believe she was in the square before that...there were many vacant house/warehouses in there. That gives the killer time from Watkins previous pass, 15-20 minutes earlier. Plus, it wouldn't take 35 minutes for her to get to the square, if she had a meet, she would have headed there directly. Her meet may well have been where she was killed.

Maybe the detectives searching nearby alleys had a tip a meeting was taking place, because there was no urgent reason to have 3 detectives searching alleys after midnight. Not in the city anyway.

[Jon Guy]

There was Edward McKenna.

The local oddball who had also been hop picking. He was picked up by police and questioned about the murders.

If her suspect wasn`t him, it could have been someone like that. A nut returning from the hops just as the murders commence.

A little bit more meat re: McKenna and Eddowes

On 8th Sept the Star reporter speaks to a Ten Bells barman who states that earlier that day: The proprietor of the Ten Bells is Mr. E. Waldron. The house stands on the corner of Spitalfields Market, and opens early for the convenience of those who bring their goods from the country. One of the assistants gave some information to our reporter with reference to the rumor that the murdered woman was seen there this morning. He said: A woman did call in here about five o'clock. She was poorly dressed, having no bodice to her skirt. She was middle-aged. She just had something to drink, when a man called for her. He just popped his head in the door and retired immediately afterwards. He had on a little skull cap, and was, as far as I could see, without a coat. But he gave me no opportunity of seeing him. I think, however, I should know his face again, and I think I would also know the woman. The description of the woman corresponds to a certain extent, especially with regard to age, hair, and clothing, with that of the victim of to-day.

McKenna habitually wore a skull cap and had been hop picking.
Eddowes may have seen the above newspaper report as they would be following the murders and the Ten Bells was local to her.
On 14th Sept McKenna is taken into custody for behaving strangely with a knife, again this is in the paper.

[Jon Guy]

My guess is that the meeting with Sailor Man was scheduled for midnight, the man waited because he knew at some point she would scurry over when she was released. IF in fact we have a legitimate sighting of Kate by Lawende. Something I highly doubt. But for the sake of argument I give Sailor Man a possible viable sighting.

If that was the case Mike, I`d say Sailor Man was waiting for her in the shadows outside Bishopsgate Police station.

[Jon Guy]

I was being poetic, Jon

Trying to make sense of that scenario, Jon
It does work if Eddowes was not supposed to be picked up by the police.
Keep her close through drink, being careful not to let anyone know she`s with you, and then she is followed as she wanders off back to F&D St.
Goulston Street was just around the corner so perhaps the murder site was set by the assassins.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, but what if a drunken Eddowes getting picked up by the police was not supposed to happen !!
The plan may have been to keep buying her drinks (to keep her close) and then slaughter her when darkness falls.

My guess is that the meeting with Sailor Man was scheduled for midnight, the man waited because he knew at some point she would scurry over when she was released. IF in fact we have a legitimate sighting of Kate by Lawende. Something I highly doubt. But for the sake of argument I give Sailor Man a possible viable sighting.

[Michael W Richards]

So this killer who had good reason (good enough to kill her), let her stay among the police for several hours, severely intoxicated to the extent where she could have blabbed anything, but only planned to eliminate her after she had spoken to police???

How can that possibly make sense to anyone?

Frankly I'm surprised I have to have another go with this.....if she wanted to go to the Police and "blabbed" she could have done so at any time Jon and if the info was valuable, collected the reward that was available at that time. Which I believe was around 500L total, comprised of a few independently donated sums. She was also pissed drunk, how would anything she said to the police be considered as valuable information by them?

How could this not be clear to anyone?

My theory is that she was attempting to blackmail someone she should have steered clear of. The ransom for her silence would surely be worth more to a killer than the sum available through the reward.

[Jon Guy]

It was already dark Jon.
It was the end of September, the Sun set at 5:40 pm, Eddowes was arrested by PC Robinson about 8:30 pm.

I was being poetic, Jon

[Wickerman]

Yes, but what if a drunken Eddowes getting picked up by the police was not supposed to happen !!
The plan may have been to keep buying her drinks (to keep her close) and then slaughter her when darkness falls.

It was already dark Jon.
It was the end of September, the Sun set at 5:40 pm, Eddowes was arrested by PC Robinson about 8:30 pm.