Can we definitively conclude that Alice McKenzie was not killed by the Ripper?

[MrBarnett]

Does the fact that we know just so little about Alice McKenzie have an impact on whether she is considered a victim of JtR? We hardly know anything of her background and her movements on night in question are patchy at best.

Tristan

Hi Tristan,

We know a fair bit about Alice’s background.

[Losmandris]

Does the fact that we know just so little about Alice McKenzie have an impact on whether she is considered a victim of JtR? We hardly know anything of her background and her movements on night in question are patchy at best.

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

If one or more of the Canonical Group was done by someone other than this Jack fellow, then there may be a reason we see a similar style murder again the following year. Because if someone other than Jack killed Polly or Annie or Kate or Mary, then we would have 2 Unfortunate killers who also mutilate, pm. Even if the man we commonly refer to as Jack was just a "spree killer",...by definition it which would suggest long lapses between attacks would be unlikely... that could explain why we see yet another murder so reminiscent of a Canonical. His style is close enough to have his work mistaken for Jacks.

It would also explain why there are important differences evident in some of the womens murders in the C5.

[Harry D]

But there could have been more than one killer as many suggest, so if that be the case how can you argue for or against that scenario with Mckenzie? or any of the other victims for that matter. In my opinion, the only victims that have enough in common by their killers MO are Chapman and Eddowes

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

If there was a single killer, we cannot know his physical or mental state in July 1889. We also don't know if he had been incarcerated or sent to a workhouse for a period of time before he was back on the streets, or some serial killers have cooling-off periods for various reasons. McKenzie's murder might have been a spur of the moment thing and he was not suitably equipped for the job. Who knows?

All I know is that McKenzie's murder had the signature characteristics of previous murders, and murders of this nature were not common. Attempted murders and petty assaults happened but only a few women had their throats slit and bodies mutilated on the streets of Whitechapel. Alice McKenzie was one of them. For that reason, I don't believe she can be ruled out. Personally, I think she was murdered by the same hand as the C5.

[Trevor Marriott]

Most of the arguments against McKenzie are:

The killer wouldn't de-escalate after what he did to Mary Kelly.

and...

The killer wouldn't wait eight months before claiming his next victim.

Neither of which are conclusive arguments imo.

But there could have been more than one killer as many suggest, so if that be the case how can you argue for or against that scenario with Mckenzie? or any of the other victims for that matter. In my opinion, the only victims that have enough in common by their killers MO are Chapman and Eddowes

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Most of the arguments against McKenzie are:

The killer wouldn't de-escalate after what he did to Mary Kelly.

and...

The killer wouldn't wait eight months before claiming his next victim.

Neither of which are conclusive arguments imo.

I agree. Neither the reduction in the mutilations or the cuts to the throat nor the delay since Mary Kelly's murder, are sufficient to rule out JtR being involved. Of course, they don't indicate he was, either. Medical opinion was divided at the time, with Dr. Phillips tending to think she was not a victim of JtR while Dr. Bond leaned the other way.

It's odd how a lot more focus is placed on Martha Tabram as a potential first murder victim of JtR than there is on Alice McKenzie as the potential last. I include myself in that assessment. Yet, every time I do consider it, I find it very hard to convince myself that she couldn't be. I can't convince myself she was, either, but on the whole, there's a lot more similarities between McKenzie's murder and the Polly/Chapman/Eddowes/Kelly grouping than there is for Stride; who fits more in terms of timing than the other aspects of her actual murder. And if Stride cannot be ruled out (and I don't think she can be ruled out, though I understand the arguments questioning her inclusion), it feels a bit odd to rule out McKenzie.

- Jeff

[Harry D]

Most of the arguments against McKenzie are:

The killer wouldn't de-escalate after what he did to Mary Kelly.

and...

The killer wouldn't wait eight months before claiming his next victim.

Neither of which are conclusive arguments imo.

[JeffHamm]

imho its a moot point because the ripper wasnt psychotic.

That's one hypothesis, and certainly not one that's been disproven. On the other hand, psychosis isn't disproven either. Psychosis doesn't mean he had to be a babbling idiot, or otherwise "avoidable". Delusional thoughts and ideas that JtR may have had need not have made him someone who would be automatically avoided by the victims. It's often assumed that psychosis must manifest in such a way that he would be noticed, but that assumption is incorrect. As a result, there's no way to be sure JtR was, or was not, psychotic. We probably can rule out someone so out of touch that their delusions were readily apparent, that I agree with, but that only rules out some forms of psychotic episodes, not all of them. Unless the case is solved, both avenues are open and reasonable possibilities.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Psychosis does wax and wane for many people. Richard Chase committed his crimes all within a month I think it was, so it's anybody's guess if he would have stopped for a while. Chase was, however, pretty psychotic a lot of the time, but it usually manifested with him killing animals. Herbert Mullins also committed his murders over a short period of 4 months, but it looks more like two clusters close together (a smaller one late 1972, and a larger one around Jan/Feb 1973). He may have had a lull for a couple months, then a second larger psychotic break.

Still, psychosis, particularly when left untreated, does not just go away, so even if it does vary in its intensity, it does seem odd that even if McKenzie is included, where's the next bout?

- Jeff

imho its a moot point because the ripper wasnt psychotic.

[JeffHamm]

hi jeff
I could be wrong but serial killers with serious mental illness, like chase and mullins, usually don't have such long layoffs and or due to long periods of "lucidity".

Psychosis does wax and wane for many people. Richard Chase committed his crimes all within a month I think it was, so it's anybody's guess if he would have stopped for a while. Chase was, however, pretty psychotic a lot of the time, but it usually manifested with him killing animals. Herbert Mullins also committed his murders over a short period of 4 months, but it looks more like two clusters close together (a smaller one late 1972, and a larger one around Jan/Feb 1973). He may have had a lull for a couple months, then a second larger psychotic break.

Still, psychosis, particularly when left untreated, does not just go away, so even if it does vary in its intensity, it does seem odd that even if McKenzie is included, where's the next bout?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

I believe the killer commonly referred to as Jack the Ripper was much more likely to have been a spree killer rather than a serial killer, It looks to me based on the murders of Polly then Annie that someone who had struggled with self control and urges lost the fight. He could have burned out quickly like a lit match. The fact they occur within a 2 week period is also telling, Im not sure once the bottle was uncorked that he could put it back on. I believe he was an inspiration for some future acts, Alice may be one of that group. But Im comfortable with the idea that he either left, was jailed or institutionalized, or he died.. before Christmas of 88.

What troubles me about some of the officials remarks is that there is an attempt to explain this away and suggest they got their man, despite the fact that in 96' they start up the whole Ripper response engine again based on a letter containing some of the GSG. Its that issue that makes me wonder whether they ever knew who he was or why these happened, and he was removed from action quietly and unofficially. Maybe by family, or again, by death. I don't think he was officially in custody at any time, but I do think he was off the streets before Alice was killed.

What was Monroe's Hot potato I wonder.

I don't think there's really a consensus on what constitutes a "spree killer" vs a "serial killer". The initial idea was that a spree was multiple murders, in different locations, without a cooling off period. But, how long constitutes a cooling off period isn't really defined all that well, and the terms become almost interchangeable and the same person is described as a spree by some and serial by others (sometimes even both by the same authors). I don't think there are any specific characteristics of the offender that end up being different either, meaning, during the investigation one might think "hmmm, could be serial or could be spree", and then when it gets solved, note that "Ahhh, they've got characteristic X, so it was a spree after all". There may be some strong opinions out there, but like most strong opinions, they are often supported with anecdotes (i.e. single case studies) rather than systematic studies - and that's being generous as often there is nothing to support the opinion except more opinion. (Not referring to you or your post here, rather, just a note of caution with regards to getting too caught up in thinking there's a difference between spree and serial killers; that's hard to know given there's no standard definition that clearly allows one to classify a series one way or the other).

There are probably cases where someone does commit a series of offenses and then stops and never again. The murderous events may have occurred at a point where the offender is under some sort of upheaval in their life, and has a large number of "stressors" all come together and they can't handle it. Some killers, like Denis Rader, do seem to get things under control and stop for long periods of time (though he says he was thinking of doing another murder, what he says and what he might have actually done are not necessarily the same thing). Also, the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker (Joseph deAngelo) eventually stopped for years before finally being identified. So, while JtR may have been removed from action somehow (death, incarceration, illness, etc), it's not impossible that he got things under control. There's no evidence that the Zodiac committed any more crimes after killing Paul Stine, despite his letters claiming otherwise.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Anyone that thinks highly publicized acts committed by killers are not emulated/mimicked/copied/replicated/duplicated/mirrored/ in later crimes hasn't read a paper.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Tristan,

Yah, while the C5 all occur quite rapidly, with a lengthy delay until McKenzie's murder, that's not all that unusual. And if one goes with the idea that JtR might be psychotic, psychosis isn't always a permanent state, it can come and go. The gap may just reflect a period of lucidity. Or, it reflects winter stopped him, and he was able to control himself for a bit after that. If JtR is McKenzie's killer (big if), it may be his life stablized over that winter, then something set him off again. Hard to say, and just throwing out possibilities, not facts.

Anyway, the gap, though it looks odd, when one examines other serial criminals, there can be a flurry of activity, then nothing, then another flurry or a few single events spread out, etc. The temporal patterns can be quite varied, and without solving the case, it's hard to know what that is.

- Jeff

hi jeff
I could be wrong but serial killers with serious mental illness, like chase and mullins, usually don't have such long layoffs and or due to long periods of "lucidity".

[Abby Normal]

Maybe, but even the throat wounds are more shallow, do not sever the wind pipe, yet he had time to make a few cuts to the abdomen. But, there are two cuts to the throat, which JtR seemed to do most times, but usually the 2nd was a complete circle down to the spine, while in this case it was two 4 inch cuts (still not small, but a bit of a change - whether that's important or not is open to debate).

I doubt burnout/just not into it, would be the case. That would be highly unusual for a serial murderer (to be sort of done with it, but do one more, and think "meh, not my thing anymore"). Sick, maybe, but then, if he's taken a break for so long, why go out when he's ill? (I'm thinking physically ill here, not mentally).

Not saying it can't work as an idea, but it seems to me that the copy-cat idea, someone killed her then took a few swipes at the abdomen to make it look like JtR, is a strong alternative to "JtR did it, but had a different knife that was unsuitable." It probably needs more serious scrutiny, to go over all the info there is, and see if there's anything that's been overlooked.

- Jeff

hi jeff
pretty much agree-I would tend to think it had more to do with being wasted and or interrupted then the other things I mentioned-was just thinking out loud.

re-copy cat? meh. that sort of thing is Hollywood movie stuff. as far as I am aware theres only been one case I know of in the history of crime where someone tried to make a murder look like another serial killer-I forgot the killers name but he intentionally tried to make it look like a manson murder, but even in this case manson was a known murderer, unlike the ripper killings, which were still unsolved. and that being said, what would be the point of an unsub trying to make it look like another unsub, a famous one at that, when all he would doing would be putting his deed in a much higher light of scrutiny and putting himself in the frame of a whole series of murders.
I think a not having the right knife or my previous idea of being too inebriated and or interrupted is much more viable than the copy cat idea.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe the killer commonly referred to as Jack the Ripper was much more likely to have been a spree killer rather than a serial killer, It looks to me based on the murders of Polly then Annie that someone who had struggled with self control and urges lost the fight. He could have burned out quickly like a lit match. The fact they occur within a 2 week period is also telling, Im not sure once the bottle was uncorked that he could put it back on. I believe he was an inspiration for some future acts, Alice may be one of that group. But Im comfortable with the idea that he either left, was jailed or institutionalized, or he died.. before Christmas of 88.

What troubles me about some of the officials remarks is that there is an attempt to explain this away and suggest they got their man, despite the fact that in 96' they start up the whole Ripper response engine again based on a letter containing some of the GSG. Its that issue that makes me wonder whether they ever knew who he was or why these happened, and he was removed from action quietly and unofficially. Maybe by family, or again, by death. I don't think he was officially in custody at any time, but I do think he was off the streets before Alice was killed.

What was Monroe's Hot potato I wonder.