Can we definitively conclude that Alice McKenzie was not killed by the Ripper?

[John Wheat]

I didnt say similar MO's John, nor did I suggest that multiple people were killing the same way. In fact, I believe the true Ripper murders are the ones that do in fact have repetitive MO's, repetitive mutilation focus, similar Victimology, and circumstantial evidence that matches as well. Those are Polly, Annie and perhaps Kate. There are a few elements of Kates murder that are unclear, for one...was she actively soliciting when she met her killer? Polly and Annie both were. Why would Kates injuries differ in knife technique and visible skill? Why did he waste time marking her face?

The point I was making about all the authorities "speculations" about what happened to Jack is similar to the one you made. I dont think there is much information that can be trusted or believed from most, if not all, of the Senior Investigators. Which means, as was my suggestion, that its quite possible the man they referred to as JtR may well have still been in London and still eager to kill street women...in which case Alice can certainly be considered a possible victim of his. But its not a given that he killed for the same reasons most believe Jack killed for.

To your point about multiple killers co-existing in London during the specific time frame we study...its not speculative on my part. There were....obviously. There were 13 names in the Unsolved Murders file, the Canonical Group only claims 5 of them... accepted by most investigators...which leaves 8 more that were not by Jack.....like Emma, Martha, Alice...multiple Torso's...etc.

There were a few murderers of women around during those specific months, and only a few murders within the accepted Canonical Group seem to have a fixed MO.

The Canonical murders are very similar except Stride. Who may or may not have been a victim of Jack the Ripper.

[John Wheat]

Without knowing what specific circumstances would account for such an action, you can't say it didn't happen.

Yes because the Police are well known for solving infamous crimes but not telling anyone.

[Michael W Richards]

Its is patently incorrect to use the Canonical Group as if it is based on a repetitive MO. Its not. Liz Stride would not be in it, Mary likely doesnt belong as a continuation of an existing established MO...but as I said, within the Canonical Group of Five WE DO find repetitive manner of Victimology, Acquisition, of Disabling, killing by double throat cuts, and abdominal mutilations as the victims body and brain are dying.

I realize that many want to base what is probable on modern serial killer data that supports killers unexpectedly morphing using various forms of acquisition, weapon and killing over the long periods that they are active, but for me......Polly was actively soliciting at the time, was choked, had her throat cut twice, was lain flat on her back, her skirts were lifted, and abdominal mutilations took place. Annie was actively soliciting at the time, she was choked, had her throat cut twice, she was lain flat on her back, her skirts lifted, and abdominal mutilations took place..this time resulting in an extraction. Kate...we dont know if she was actively soliciting, we assume she was choked, then had her throat cut twice, then she was lain on her back, had her skirts lifted and had abdominal mutilations take place ending with extractions again. What isnt repetitive is the superfluous knife detail work he did around her navel, cutting her colon section, cutting and tearing the apron, marking her face, slicing her nose.......

The exceptions with Kate make her in my estimation possibly linked by the same killer of Polly and Annie.

[Michael W Richards]

Your idea that all of a sudden there were several killers with similar M.O.s in an area of London is fanciful at best. The idea that the authorities knew who Jack the Ripper was and didn't disclose it and "hot potatoes" etc is complete bullshit.

I didnt say similar MO's John, nor did I suggest that multiple people were killing the same way. In fact, I believe the true Ripper murders are the ones that do in fact have repetitive MO's, repetitive mutilation focus, similar Victimology, and circumstantial evidence that matches as well. Those are Polly, Annie and perhaps Kate. There are a few elements of Kates murder that are unclear, for one...was she actively soliciting when she met her killer? Polly and Annie both were. Why would Kates injuries differ in knife technique and visible skill? Why did he waste time marking her face?

The point I was making about all the authorities "speculations" about what happened to Jack is similar to the one you made. I dont think there is much information that can be trusted or believed from most, if not all, of the Senior Investigators. Which means, as was my suggestion, that its quite possible the man they referred to as JtR may well have still been in London and still eager to kill street women...in which case Alice can certainly be considered a possible victim of his. But its not a given that he killed for the same reasons most believe Jack killed for.

To your point about multiple killers co-existing in London during the specific time frame we study...its not speculative on my part. There were....obviously. There were 13 names in the Unsolved Murders file, the Canonical Group only claims 5 of them... accepted by most investigators...which leaves 8 more that were not by Jack.....like Emma, Martha, Alice...multiple Torso's...etc.

There were a few murderers of women around during those specific months, and only a few murders within the accepted Canonical Group seem to have a fixed MO.

[Scott Nelson]

The idea that the authorities knew who Jack the Ripper was and didn't disclose it and "hot potatoes" etc is complete bullshit.

Without knowing what specific circumstances would account for such an action, you can't say it didn't happen.

[Fiver]

The execution of Bury is one of the key reasons why we still have a generic Canonical 5.

The Canonical 5 theory was not created to exclude Bury. Macnaghten likely didn't think Mackenzie was a Ripper victim because it didn't fit with one of his suspects, Druitt.

Ultimately, it stands to reason that the Ripper would of had more than just 5 victims; unless the killer was only in London for 10 weeks or so in 1888, and then left London entirely.

Or the Ripper died. Or his health failed. Or he was institutionalized. Or incarcerated. Or the thrill was gone. Or he grew too afraid of getting caught.

No theory about when or why the Ripper stopped can be proven, No theory about when or why the Ripper started can be proven.

[Lewis C]

Hi George
My thoughts on Mckenzie are that I believe she was a ripper victim and the suspect for her murder is Carl Feigenabum. There is strong circumstantial evidence to support my suspicion.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

If you can provide strong circumstantial evidence that Feigenbaum was even in England at the time of Mackenzie's murder or of any of the C5 murders, that would interest me. It would probably be better to do that in a Feigenbaum thread rather than this one, however.

[Lewis C]

Everything about the murder of Stride points to her not being a Ripper victim

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Everything except that she was a middle aged prostitute who drank too much, her throat was slit, and her murder occurred 45 minutes before and within easy walking distance of Eddowes' murder.

[Lewis C]

Because if Jack didn't plan to kill indoors in November then your theory about him only killing in Summer months falls apart.

I didn't say summer, I said warm weather, meaning warm relative to the months that follow September. Otherwise, I agree with this, but for Jack only killing outdoors during warmer months to be a possibility, it only needs to be a possibility that Jack planned to kill MJK indoors.

[JeffHamm]

Advance of illness/ability to commit the crimes would def. be a very reasonable consideration. With an untreated mental illness of bipolar/schizo; one will physically deteriorate rather quickly if not eating - which is very common. Answered by my husband/psychiatrist of 50 years and still practicing.

Hi Filby,

That's a very good point. If JtR were psychotic (rather than psychopathic), then his mental illness could lead to physical deterioration, in turn resulting in less sever injuries. It's not an unreasonable line to consider, and the implications of that suggestion create interesting topics for discussion. Things like, but if he is so physically weakened, then could he have attacked McKenzie silently enough that he didn't attract the attention of the nearby police officers? Could he have overpowered her in order to kill her? And so forth. It's not out of the realm of possibilities, but it may create sufficient complications that work against the idea. But maybe they can be adequately addressed? That's the whole point of discussions after all, to see if answer to questions like these can be found (beyond the "it's not impossible so he might have ..." type, which can be thrown out willy nilly).

- Jeff

[John Wheat]

I believe that the generally accepted perception of the motivation for the Canonical Group murders is but one possibility among others. There is a possibility that despite lacking concrete evidence that would link all Five Canonical by knowledge of each other, it is within the realm of possibility that they were all known to him. I also believe that the perception there is a Canonical Group that consists of Five women and these were separate from all other violent crimes and criminals in the area at that time is a possibility. Like a lesser number of "ripper" victims linked with a group or gang of killers, or a greater number linked with a single individual is also within that possibility realm.

On face value, Alice's injuries fit more with the alledged Canonical murders of Polly, Annie and Kate than either Liz or Mary do. They have the misfortune of timing, and our perhaps inaccurate presumption that these "ripper" style killings ended when "a" Ripper stopped, or was stopped. The inclusion of Alice into a ripper style killing group seems reasonable, but does that then mean that this 1 man kept on killing past the time the authorities claimed to have institutionalized him, or could it mean that they incorrectly assessed these crimes by using only 1 mans madness as their explanation? Might there have been other possible reasons to explain some of these that are still unknown? Might some possible reasons be "hot potatoes"?

I think Alice indicates at the very least that IF Jack The Ripper had been caught and institutionalized, then we have evidence with Alice that other men could and did kill in much the same manner. Men that would also have been around the Fall of 1888, like Jack apparently was.

Your idea that all of a sudden there were several killers with similar M.O.s in an area of London is fanciful at best. The idea that the authorities knew who Jack the Ripper was and didn't disclose it and "hot potatoes" etc is complete bullshit.

[John Wheat]

That's a fair point too. I won't say that it's probable that Jack planned to kill indoors in November, just that it's possible.

Because if Jack didn't plan to kill indoors in November then your theory about him only killing in Summer months falls apart.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe that the generally accepted perception of the motivation for the Canonical Group murders is but one possibility among others. There is a possibility that despite lacking concrete evidence that would link all Five Canonical by knowledge of each other, it is within the realm of possibility that they were all known to him. I also believe that the perception there is a Canonical Group that consists of Five women and these were separate from all other violent crimes and criminals in the area at that time is a possibility. Like a lesser number of "ripper" victims linked with a group or gang of killers, or a greater number linked with a single individual is also within that possibility realm.

On face value, Alice's injuries fit more with the alledged Canonical murders of Polly, Annie and Kate than either Liz or Mary do. They have the misfortune of timing, and our perhaps inaccurate presumption that these "ripper" style killings ended when "a" Ripper stopped, or was stopped. The inclusion of Alice into a ripper style killing group seems reasonable, but does that then mean that this 1 man kept on killing past the time the authorities claimed to have institutionalized him, or could it mean that they incorrectly assessed these crimes by using only 1 mans madness as their explanation? Might there have been other possible reasons to explain some of these that are still unknown? Might some possible reasons be "hot potatoes"?

I think Alice indicates at the very least that IF Jack The Ripper had been caught and institutionalized, then we have evidence with Alice that other men could and did kill in much the same manner. Men that would also have been around the Fall of 1888, like Jack apparently was.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

So what is your current thinking on McKenzie in this regard? Apologies if I have missed a previous reply on this topic.

Cheers, George

Hi George
My thoughts on Mckenzie are that I believe she was a ripper victim and the suspect for her murder is Carl Feigenabum. There is strong circumstantial evidence to support my suspicion.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Filby]

Maybe, but even the throat wounds are more shallow, do not sever the wind pipe, yet he had time to make a few cuts to the abdomen. But, there are two cuts to the throat, which JtR seemed to do most times, but usually the 2nd was a complete circle down to the spine, while in this case it was two 4 inch cuts (still not small, but a bit of a change - whether that's important or not is open to debate).

I doubt burnout/just not into it, would be the case. That would be highly unusual for a serial murderer (to be sort of done with it, but do one more, and think "meh, not my thing anymore"). Sick, maybe, but then, if he's taken a break for so long, why go out when he's ill? (I'm thinking physically ill here, not mentally).

Not saying it can't work as an idea, but it seems to me that the copy-cat idea, someone killed her then took a few swipes at the abdomen to make it look like JtR, is a strong alternative to "JtR did it, but had a different knife that was unsuitable." It probably needs more serious scrutiny, to go over all the info there is, and see if there's anything that's been overlooked.

- Jeff

Advance of illness/ability to commit the crimes would def. be a very reasonable consideration. With an untreated mental illness of bipolar/schizo; one will physically deteriorate rather quickly if not eating - which is very common. Answered by my husband/psychiatrist of 50 years and still practicing.