Can we definitively conclude that Alice McKenzie was not killed by the Ripper?

[JeffHamm]

I always assumed the nine month gap between the murder of MJK and the murder of Alice as factor against her being a victim of the same perpetrator. Again now not so sure as he could have gone to ground for a whole variety of reasons.

Tristan

Hi Tristan,

Yah, while the C5 all occur quite rapidly, with a lengthy delay until McKenzie's murder, that's not all that unusual. And if one goes with the idea that JtR might be psychotic, psychosis isn't always a permanent state, it can come and go. The gap may just reflect a period of lucidity. Or, it reflects winter stopped him, and he was able to control himself for a bit after that. If JtR is McKenzie's killer (big if), it may be his life stablized over that winter, then something set him off again. Hard to say, and just throwing out possibilities, not facts.

Anyway, the gap, though it looks odd, when one examines other serial criminals, there can be a flurry of activity, then nothing, then another flurry or a few single events spread out, etc. The temporal patterns can be quite varied, and without solving the case, it's hard to know what that is.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

hi jeff
agree. I think if it was the ripper it could also have to do with him being interrupted and or wasted, sick or just not into it any more/burnout.

Maybe, but even the throat wounds are more shallow, do not sever the wind pipe, yet he had time to make a few cuts to the abdomen. But, there are two cuts to the throat, which JtR seemed to do most times, but usually the 2nd was a complete circle down to the spine, while in this case it was two 4 inch cuts (still not small, but a bit of a change - whether that's important or not is open to debate).

I doubt burnout/just not into it, would be the case. That would be highly unusual for a serial murderer (to be sort of done with it, but do one more, and think "meh, not my thing anymore"). Sick, maybe, but then, if he's taken a break for so long, why go out when he's ill? (I'm thinking physically ill here, not mentally).

Not saying it can't work as an idea, but it seems to me that the copy-cat idea, someone killed her then took a few swipes at the abdomen to make it look like JtR, is a strong alternative to "JtR did it, but had a different knife that was unsuitable." It probably needs more serious scrutiny, to go over all the info there is, and see if there's anything that's been overlooked.

- Jeff

[Losmandris]

I always assumed the nine month gap between the murder of MJK and the murder of Alice as factor against her being a victim of the same perpetrator. Again now not so sure as he could have gone to ground for a whole variety of reasons.

Tristan

[Abby Normal]

Abby outlines the reasons for inclusions. The typical argument against her inclusion is that the gashes to her abdomen are much less severe than in the C5 (other than Stride, of course) and appear to have been inflicted by a much smaller knife. Dr. Phillips, though he indicated he thought some anatomical skill was involved, considered her unlikely to be a victim of JtR. Dr. Bond, however, believed the opposite.

Of all the post-Kelly murders, this is the one I think is most similar to the C5 set. It's also in the same general area as the others. I see no reason why JtR, if it was him, couldn't have a different knife on this occasion, one not large enough to do what he did in the past. The lack of the slashing to the face, though (as occurred with Eddowes and Kelly) is missing and that could have been done.

Other possible ideas can be dependant upon what assumptions one makes about JtR. For example, a lot of mutilation murderers have a mental illness with delusions of some sort. Things like believing others have something hidden inside them (demons, snakes, aliens, etc) or that they themselves suffer from some bizarre illness that requires them to consume blood (i.e. Richard Chase believed his blood was being stolen and he had to consume blood to stay alive), and so forth. So, if one presumes that JtR had some sort of psychotic break, complete with some complex delusions (note, this doesn't mean he couldn't interact with others, he might seem a bit odd or bizarre but not necessarily; delusions do not necessarily make someone a raving lunatic) then one could be seeing him either in a phase where the delusions are not as strong, or even that his break with reality is more complete and he's not as focused, etc. Of course, if the initial presumption is wrong about JtR, things like that do not follow.

Anyway, Alice McKenzie is certainly worth reading up on and considering very closely. If she was killed by JtR, there are a number of proposed suspects who could be ruled out. If she wasn't, though, you might rule out someone in error.

- Jeff

hi jeff
agree. I think if it was the ripper it could also have to do with him being interrupted and or wasted, sick or just not into it any more/burnout.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Certainly worth considering. I favour that she wasn’t but who knows. If I express doubt I tend to get accused in some quarters of doing so because if Mackenzie was a ripper victim then Druitt is out but this isn’t the reason. She could have been.

[JeffHamm]

Abby outlines the reasons for inclusions. The typical argument against her inclusion is that the gashes to her abdomen are much less severe than in the C5 (other than Stride, of course) and appear to have been inflicted by a much smaller knife. Dr. Phillips, though he indicated he thought some anatomical skill was involved, considered her unlikely to be a victim of JtR. Dr. Bond, however, believed the opposite.

Of all the post-Kelly murders, this is the one I think is most similar to the C5 set. It's also in the same general area as the others. I see no reason why JtR, if it was him, couldn't have a different knife on this occasion, one not large enough to do what he did in the past. The lack of the slashing to the face, though (as occurred with Eddowes and Kelly) is missing and that could have been done.

Other possible ideas can be dependant upon what assumptions one makes about JtR. For example, a lot of mutilation murderers have a mental illness with delusions of some sort. Things like believing others have something hidden inside them (demons, snakes, aliens, etc) or that they themselves suffer from some bizarre illness that requires them to consume blood (i.e. Richard Chase believed his blood was being stolen and he had to consume blood to stay alive), and so forth. So, if one presumes that JtR had some sort of psychotic break, complete with some complex delusions (note, this doesn't mean he couldn't interact with others, he might seem a bit odd or bizarre but not necessarily; delusions do not necessarily make someone a raving lunatic) then one could be seeing him either in a phase where the delusions are not as strong, or even that his break with reality is more complete and he's not as focused, etc. Of course, if the initial presumption is wrong about JtR, things like that do not follow.

Anyway, Alice McKenzie is certainly worth reading up on and considering very closely. If she was killed by JtR, there are a number of proposed suspects who could be ruled out. If she wasn't, though, you might rule out someone in error.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

I always assumed that Alice McKenzie was not a Ripper victim. Now after reading more about the case, I am not so sure. Is there a definitive argument one way or another?

hi los
some of the drs and police thought she was, some didn't. today consensus is mixed. I think she probably was:
same victimology
same location
at night
throat cut
abdomen gashed
unsolved
and the clincher for me- she was found with her skirt hiked up like most of the rest.

[Losmandris]

I always assumed that Alice McKenzie was not a Ripper victim. Now after reading more about the case, I am not so sure. Is there a definitive argument one way or another?