Can we definitively conclude that Alice McKenzie was not killed by the Ripper?

[Michael W Richards]

Governments using informants and agents provocateurs is real world. Governments covering up a serial killer within a terrorist organization is the plot of a particularly bad thriller.



Poor research? Francis Frederick Millen is one of the few people we can prove could not have been the Ripper.

The New York Tribune shows that on the evening of September 24, 1888, F F Millen gave a speech to the 3rd Assembly District Harrison and Morton Workman's Association at Muger's Hall. Even the fastest ship in the world couldn't have gotten Millen to London in time to murder Stride and Eddowes. The New York Tribune also shows that on the evening of November 14, 1888, F F Millen was at a Republican victory dinner at Delmonicos. Even the fastest ship in the world couldn't have gotten Millen from London after the murder of Kelly in time to attend that dinner.

Great info on Millen there Fiver. I wasnt implying that Millen himself was thought to be the killer though, Generals orchestrate, soldiers do the dirty work. His name did come up in a correspondence the year following the Ripper murders as someone considered as having something to do with the murders. As for Poor research, there are great examples in the MM, with no reluctance to name specific people. I wonder if Ostrog got a hold of a police document like the MM, is that suggestion of his culpability in the MM libel? He was in jail at the time, could he had sued if that document became public? Just wondering.

On the point that Scott is making, I could see them having an investigation suppressed if it was potentially libellous and without sufficient proof. But if the theory is insufficiently proven by the known evidence, then there is a likely chance that they were wrong suspecting him. Or, as a senior man suggested, if the police in London had equal powers that other forces had abroad to hold people indeterminate amounts of time maybe they could have eked out a confession eventually.

I suppose the issue is really whether we think they actually solved it, or knew who did it, knew the man responsible, and I guess at best we can say it would seem some had their theories but none were provable in court.

[Scott Nelson]

Yes they would have, if that evidence was insufficient and the family threatened to sue.

[Fiver]

As has been mentioned numerous times in the case of Kosminski, evidence wasn't suppressed - it just wasn't sufficient to justify an arrest, especially after the witness backed down. Kosminski was never imprisoned.

If the police had any evidence that Kosminski was the Ripper, they had no reason to keep that information from the public.

[Fiver]

Actually its just the truth. The National DefenseGovernments covering up directors and Central Intelligence men had recorded payments to Double Spies and informants from the "enemy" ranks. Some of the most Senior men assigned to the Ripper cases had personally overseen operations and operatives that were from "terrorist" groups.

Governments using informants and agents provocateurs is real world. Governments covering up a serial killer within a terrorist organization is the plot of a particularly bad thriller.

How do you think Gen Millen gets mentioned as a possible Ripper suspect?

Poor research? Francis Frederick Millen is one of the few people we can prove could not have been the Ripper.

The New York Tribune shows that on the evening of September 24, 1888, F F Millen gave a speech to the 3rd Assembly District Harrison and Morton Workman's Association at Muger's Hall. Even the fastest ship in the world couldn't have gotten Millen to London in time to murder Stride and Eddowes. The New York Tribune also shows that on the evening of November 14, 1888, F F Millen was at a Republican victory dinner at Delmonicos. Even the fastest ship in the world couldn't have gotten Millen from London after the murder of Kelly in time to attend that dinner.

[Scott Nelson]

A group of people acting to suppress evidence and imprison someone without trial is by definition a conspiracy.

As has been mentioned numerous times in the case of Kosminski, evidence wasn't suppressed - it just wasn't sufficient to justify an arrest, especially after the witness backed down. Kosminski was never imprisoned.

[Trevor Marriott]

Good morning Trevor,



In the "Polish Jew" theory the subject was certified insane and put in asylum before an arrest occurred. He could not be charged or questioned by police.

Hi Paddy

You are correct that is another option for the police if they find a lunatic wandering in a public place they can take him to a place of safety without arrest or a charge being preferred against him.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Paddy Goose]

Good morning Trevor,

The police can institutionalize a suspect after arrest...

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

In the "Polish Jew" theory the subject was certified insane and put in asylum before an arrest occurred. He could not be charged or questioned by police.

[Trevor Marriott]

Are you aware Trevor that the entire interview with Lee Harvey Oswald conducted by local police, FBI, CIA and others was not recorded in any form. No record of what was said by whom, what was discovered, what remained unclear, how Oswald responded.....nada. And as a former officer of the law yourself, would keeping detailed records of an interrogation of a suspect believed to have just assassinated the President of the United States been mandated?

The fact that there was no trial of any sort on record does not mean that someone could not have been held without a trial and institutionalized. I think its critical that we all bear in mind that the most Senior Men assigned to these cases were from National Defense and Intelligence. You are not so naive that you cant envision secretive National agencies just bypassing laws to effect what they perceive as Justice.

The UK criminal justice system is totally different to the USA

The police can institutionalize a suspect after arrest if that suspect is deemed to be suffering from a mental illness and unfit to be interviewed of course that would not simply be on the say-so of the police, they would have the prisoner assessed by mental health experts. I think you will find that the police in 1888 had similar powers

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fiver]

Hi Michael,

No, I'm not suggesting a conspiracy. The police had to allow the suspect to be confined without a trial due to a lack of incriminating evidence, his diagnosed insanity and family pressure on police. I think it was best thought that only a few senior police officials should be 'in the know.'

A group of people acting to suppress evidence and imprison someone without trial is by definition a conspiracy.

None of the hundreds of Ripper suspects were confined by their family. Of the handful who were institutionalized, none came from a family important enough to influence a police coverup.

And if a family suspected one of their kin was the Ripper, then telling any police, let alone senior police, would have been pointless, counterproductive, and stupid.

[jmenges]

Let’s try not to stray too off topic. You can use 20th century examples of murder conspiracies and investigations as long as you prove its relevance, and meaningfully circle back to, this threads topic. I don’t want to see other subjects (like the Kennedy assassination) hijacking the thread and debated here. Thanks

JM

[Fiver]

Hi Michael,

No, I'm not suggesting a conspiracy. The police had to allow the suspect to be confined without a trial due to a lack of incriminating evidence, his diagnosed insanity and family pressure on police. I think it was best thought that only a few senior police officials should be 'in the know.'

Wait, you're buying into the Royal Conspiracy nonsense?

[Michael W Richards]

Detected crime no proceedings !!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Are you aware Trevor that the entire interview with Lee Harvey Oswald conducted by local police, FBI, CIA and others was not recorded in any form. No record of what was said by whom, what was discovered, what remained unclear, how Oswald responded.....nada. And as a former officer of the law yourself, would keeping detailed records of an interrogation of a suspect believed to have just assassinated the President of the United States been mandated?

The fact that there was no trial of any sort on record does not mean that someone could not have been held without a trial and institutionalized. I think its critical that we all bear in mind that the most Senior Men assigned to these cases were from National Defense and Intelligence. You are not so naive that you cant envision secretive National agencies just bypassing laws to effect what they perceive as Justice.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Fiver,

That reads like the plot of an especially bad thriller. No sane government would fund terrorism against itself. If a lone insane and highly stupid individual suggested it, they would be removed unless they could find other insane and highly stupid people to support a ludicrous plan that would probably blow up in their faces.

Actually its just the truth. The National Defense directors and Central Intelligence men had recorded payments to Double Spies and informants from the "enemy" ranks. Some of the most Senior men assigned to the Ripper cases had personally overseen operations and operatives that were from "terrorist" groups. How do you think Gen Millen gets mentioned as a possible Ripper suspect? And did you know General Millen received money from HMG? Wre you aware how much moeny was paid to known terrorist affiliates to testify at the Parnell Commission? Are you aware that one witness was paid 5,000L to do so? Do you have any idea how much money that was then?

Thats how these organizations operate, they buy, they spy, they torture and trade with the enemy for intel or political gain. Iran/Contra. CIA funding drug Cartel members as informants, so they can get the big headline busts. Which for the most part, are just flies on the giant burro that the drug trade is. Cash for hostages, cash that they know will be used to buy bombs that will be used against them.

We live in Bizarro Land. So dont be surprised if you see things that defy logic or ethical reason. Thats just us, being us.

[Trevor Marriott]

There would have been no point. They couldn't have touched the suspect.

Detected crime no proceedings !!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Scott Nelson]

There would have been no point. They couldn't have touched the suspect.