LeGrand conspiracy

[mariab]

The other thing that doesn't tally with Le Grand is this from Balfour:
The man was believed by all who knew him, and who knew the criminal classes, to be the most likely man in all England to commit such atrocities.

Incidentally, there are a couple press reports which fit with what Balfour reports here (discovered by Marc Ripper, Mike Covell, and How Brown).

Except the detective agencies and the like which hired him? Taking Balfour at his word, evidently these people were hiring someone who they believed to be Jack The Ripper to snare Jack The Ripper.

What “detective agencies“? Pertaining to the WVC, it appears that Le Grand imposed himself. The circumstances of his being hired by George Lusk and his affiliation with Joseph Aarons are not yet researched comprehensively, while there is evidence that his criminal past was revealed to Lusk LATER than 1888. As for his own advertized detective agency in the Strand, there's no evidence yet to be found that it ever operated as a detective agency. Ever.

'Thriving on the wages of their sin' does not mean pimping. It does not mean financial gain in the literal sense. 'Wages of sin' is an English idiom meaning torment or eternal torment for one's actions. The expression 'wages of sin' is a religious one.

If “wages of their sin“ were to be understood in this traditional/religious sense, as “their metaphysical misery“, it doesn't make sense whatsoever that the alleged suspect discussed by Balfour “was thriving on the prostitutes metaphysical misery“ (sic). It's more plausible that Balfour is using a faulty metaphor here in a literal sense, suggesting, in a flowery fashion, that the individual in question was a pimp.

As for the quote about “a middle-aged and apparently respectable man“, this was written in a different time frame, years later than the first quote. There is the plausible possibility that Balfour was careful how to express himself in the interest of his own safety, after Le Grand was released from prison. Also: “apparently respectable man“ is NOT the same as “respectable man“. Might be even understood in the sense of “prematurely aged and weakened through years spent in prison“.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The other thing that suggests to me he is not talking about le Grand is the introduction to both men:

“Do you see that tall and villainous looking ruffian there?” a warder once said to me“Of course I do.

I was for some time brought into daily contact with a middle-aged and apparently respectable man

Regardless of any other details in the accounts of the two men under discussion, they would appear to be different men.

Villainous ruffian versus apparently respectable man?

You would have to do some serious mental acrobatics to arrive at the conclusion that these were the same men - regardless of what detectives, other prisoners and the like said and is relayed by Balfour in the main body of the two accounts.

He opens by describing men of contrasting appearance.

[Phil H]

I don't think it's an alternative reading. It is the reading.

I am sure you do think that, and you may well be right.

But experience tells me that while people ALWAYS (unless satirists or being deliberately silly) believe they are clear in what they say or write. I am sure the Goulston St graffitist did so - yet we cannot reach concensus on what he meant.

Put simply, we do not always use words that convey to others what we think they do. I think there is enough room for both interpretations in what Balfour wrote, though on balance I think you may have it right.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

FM

A very shrewd reading of the words, if I may say so, and very plausible.

My only reservation would be that people are sometimes casual (even ignorant) in their use of words and phrases - especially cliches - and thus I can conceive that he intended to infer a "pimp" even if that is not what the words actually say.

But thank you for the alternative rendering.

Phil

Phil:

I don't think it's an alternative reading. It is the reading.

'Wages of sin' is an expression as opposed to literal financial gain.

The equivalent would be someone saying: 'living off the fat of the land" and meaning living comfortably rather than eating fat off the land.

It's an idiom.

The other thing that doesn't tally with Le Grand is this from Balfour:

The man was believed by all who knew him, and who knew the criminal classes, to be the most likely man in all England to commit such atrocities.

Except the detective agencies and the like which hired him? Taking Balfour at his word, evidently these people were hiring someone who they believed to be Jack The Ripper to snare Jack The Ripper.

[Phil H]

FM

A very shrewd reading of the words, if I may say so, and very plausible.

My only reservation would be that people are sometimes casual (even ignorant) in their use of words and phrases - especially cliches - and thus I can conceive that he intended to infer a "pimp" even if that is not what the words actually say.

But thank you for the alternative rendering.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

I would have posted this on the other board, but I'm not registered.

I've read the thread on the other board and as far as I can see the claim that Balfour referred to Le Grand as a pimp is due to this section of Balfour's statement:

passing his life among abandoned women, and thriving on the wages of their sin

'Thriving on the wages of their sin' does not mean pimping. It does not mean financial gain in the literal sense.

'Wages of sin' is an English idiom meaning torment or eternal torment for one's actions. The expression 'wages of sin' is a religious one.

I would imagine that Balfour is suggesting simply that whoever he was talking about, the man in question was a punter.

Conclusion: there is nothing in Balfour's statement to suggest he was talking about a pimp.

[Chris]

Chris, I see it appropriate to let Arif and Wescott resolve this discussion between themselves ...

I'm sure no one would want to force you to comment, if you don't feel it's appropriate.

[mariab]

JTRForums is running again. PC James was indicted for murder by revolver – in his own house.

[mariab]

There were some discrepancies, as there are always discrepancies where witnesses are involved, especially in historical cases, due to misinformation and due to insufficient documentation.
For me it was obvious from the start that Balfour was referring to Le Grand and not to Grainger. The latter did not fit in the same caliber of criminal as described by Balfour. Interestingly enough, one of Balfour's descriptions of the incarcerated criminal in question is VERY similar to another discussion of Le Grand in an anonymous letter, printed in the press.

It's a shame this is necessary, but sadly it seems to be.

I'm not sure why this is "a shame“ or “necessary“. Chris, I see it appropriate to let Arif and Wescott resolve this discussion between themselves, since it involves sources on Le Grand noone else is truly familiar with or conscious of their significance. (As in, the aforementioned anonymous letter.) This despite of your massive and most impressive research on Grainger, about which I'm truly in awe.
What I'm very interested in is reading up about PC James having been convicted for murder. Does anyone have the precise details on his indictment? Was it a case of “overeagerness“ as a policeman, or was it related to true criminal activity? Tried to check it out on JTRForums, but the server seems to be down temporarily.

[Chris]

It's a shame this is necessary, but sadly it seems to be.

On jtrforums.com, Tom Wescott pretends - for reasons I don't really understand - that Debs was the only one who had doubts about whether Balfour was referring to Le Grand. The truth is that there were discrepancies with both Le Grand and Grainger, and a number of people expressed doubts about which man Balfour was referring to.

Obviously the new evidence Debs found has resolved the question. But that's far from vindicating Tom's claim that it was "crystal clear" all along. It wasn't.

[Debra A]

That's what the whole of my post said, why take that sentence and place it out of context? I wrote down each piece of evidence, including How's find where it is clearly stated that the criminal Charles Le Grand and Le Grand of the Strand were one and the same person.

[Tom_Wescott]

Recently, How brown discovered a previously unseen account of Le Grand's 1891 trial for blackmailing elderly women, in which it states that Le Grand had also worked as a private investigator on the Whitechapel murders. Proving Gerry Nixon's research and link correct.

Although Howard's find is important, it has long been known beyond doubt that Le Grand of the vigilance committee, Le Grand of Packer fame, and Le Grand the criminal were one and the same. It's extremely strange that Debs would attribute this to Howard when she herself unearthed plenty of evidence that Le Grand the criminal was the same man who interviewed Packer and headed patrols for the WVC. It's been beyond doubt for years now.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The vast majority of "career" criminals are absolutely nothing like those three extremely rare birds, thank Christ.

Very luckily these kinds of serial killer are rare indeed, Caz. I haven't expressed myself properly and I apologize, what I meant to say was that
- Manson also spent practically all of his life in prison, apart from the time when he was active with the “family“. This might turn out to be a parallel with Le Grand's “career“ as a criminal, if we consider him as a possible suspect for the Ripper murders.
- Dahmer was arrested for a minor offense early on and was registered as a sex offender. Also not too far away from Le Grand having been arrested for smaller offenses and having been a known criminal.
- Bundy I mentioned because he made stupid mistakes in his MO (like driving a conspicuous Volkswagen beetle painted gold, and approaching prospective victims with the greeting “Hi, my name is Ted“) and despite these it took a while for him to get apprehended. In my opinion, due to his crimes being a new phenomenon in their era, which partly approaches him to the Ripper.
With apologies for the brief highjacking of the thread into serial killer lore.

To Lechmere:
Debra Arif answered your other questions pretty comprehensively, and she's actually the person to address for questions about the sources pertaining to Le Grand.

Am I right in saying that the fleeting contemporary references to Le Grand in direct association with the Stride case or the WVC do not give a first name?

No, there's tons of evidence for Charles le Grand the self-proclaimed “private investigator“ to have been involved both with the WVC and with the Stride investigation. To see the evidence, you could read the relevant article in Examiner 2.
By the by, Debs will confirm that there was at least ANOTHER ONE Charles Le Grand criminally active in London (arrested in November 1886, as discussed earlier in this thread), plus there was one or more Charles Le Grands criminally active in Paris from 1884-1886, of whom we don't know yet if they are “our“ Charles Le Grand, and for whom I haven't yet properly started checking the sources pertaining to their arrests and (extortion-related) crimes. I'll do this in October, when I get to Paris.

[Debra A]

It was Gerry Nixon who first made the connection between the Grande of 'Grande and Batchelor' and 'Grande and Co.', private investigators mentioned during the investigations into the murder of Elizabeth Stride, and the criminal Charles Le Grand, convicted of several offences.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-legrand.html

Recently, How brown discovered a previously unseen account of Le Grand's 1891 trial for blackmailing elderly women, in which it states that Le Grand had also worked as a private investigator on the Whitechapel murders. Proving Gerry Nixon's research and link correct.

Also in other newspaper accounts of the 1891 trial, a man named Batchelor is mentioned, as is the Private inquiry business Grande and Co. based in the Strand (previously at 10 Agar Street Strand)

A jury found Charles Le Grand not guilty of being Christian Nelson, a ticket of leave man who had failed to report after his release on licence in 1884.
Various descriptions of Nelson and Le Grand in records found by SPE and Chris Phillips have discrepancies, variance in height, hair and eye colour and also descriptions of scars and moles, but a recent description of Nelson from another 1884 source, and found by Rob Clack, shows that Christian Nelson also had a mole on his left cheek, just like Le Grand, which had been one of the main differences that stood out, and was mentioned by me on this thread.

From recent research done by myself and Rob, it was Detective Sgt. James, a man who knew Le Grand's criminal career better than anyone else, his sworn enemy, who himself was convicted of murder in 1903 and sent to Parkhurst Prison, that pointed the finger at Le Grand as the Ripper to Jabez Balfour.

...perhaps Sgt. James was even the Scotland Yard 'spokesperson' who informed the Belfast Newsletter in March 1892 (copied in brief without exact details of the crime to another newspaper and found by Mike Covell) that the Ripper was now serving a sentence of 20 years penal servitude in Portland Prison after having being convicted in late 1891 of blackmailing elderly, rich ladies....who knows.

[Lechmere]

Maria
Are you saying that the linkage between the Le Grand fleetingly mentioned in connection with the Stride case and the other Le Grand(s) is based on comparing a photograph and a sketch?
Am I right in saying that the fleeting contemporary references to Le Grand in direct association with the Stride case or the WVC do not give a first name?