LeGrand conspiracy

[Fleetwood Mac]

Lynn:

Thriving form their predicament could well mean someone like Grainger 'treating' women. They were happy to receive as they were pretty much destitute; he was happy to give as a pretext to his objective.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It was an interesting idea Mac,thanks for posting your thoughts. Just shows that it wasn't crystal clear who or what Jabez was referring to.

Here's an 1898 newspaper article which seems to confirm that the 'wages of sin' also referred to financial gain from prostitution.

[ATTACH]12564[/ATTACH]

Hands held up.

Clearly there is evidence of 'wages of sin' amounting to financial gain.

Still feel Balfour wasn't necessarily talking of financial gain. Could go either way.

[Debra A]

It was an interesting idea Mac,thanks for posting your thoughts. Just shows that it wasn't crystal clear who or what Jabez was referring to.

Here's an 1898 newspaper article which seems to confirm that the 'wages of sin' also referred to financial gain from prostitution.

[lynn cates]

spiritual misery

Hello Mac.

"'Thriving' could mean whatever Balfour had in his mind.

But, let's be clear: the suggestion of pimping came about because it was believed that 'wages' meant financial gain. It is not the case."

Well and good. I'm open to interpretation for this. But it is difficult to see what precisely Balfour meant otherwise.

Let's start with:

"The wages of sin is death."

Right. Now do a Leibnizian substitution:

"He was thriving from their death."

Obviously we need an emendation, for the Apostle means a spiritual death--not a physical one.

"He was thriving from their spiritual death."

Another tweak changes this to:

"The man was doing well as a result of their spiritual misery."

OK. But how was he doing well? Perhaps he was trying to appear spiritually justified next to these "fallen women"? Very well. Then perhaps he needed no Sunday absolution etc., or his penance was lessened.

But I wonder if Balfour was concerned with his comparative spiritual condition?

I'd be delighted to hear any alternative to this.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Oh, and for all concerned:

As per the idiom: 'wages' means her 'reward' for her actions, not someone else's reward.

That is the whole point of the idiom.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Your challenge is to find evidence of Victorians using this phrase in a manner meaning financial gain.

With respect, no it is NOT! If anything it is for you to demonstrate that it could ONLY mean what you believe it did.

Phil:

As someone with a 1st degree in history, admittedly lapsed as I'm an accountant these days, I am fully aware that there is always room for a counter argument. Also, as someone who agrees with Neitzsche on 'good and evil' being a false dichotomy and with Sartre in that there are only choices/paths/consequences as opposed to values that remain constant and dictate right and wrong and with Hume when he says there is no such thing as an objective fact (the earth could turn the other way tomorrow; gravity could cease to exist etc); I hope it's clear that when I say 'the answer' I mean as close as you can get to 'the truth'.

Now, I have shown how this phrase was used by Victorians and its origins - the New Testament - and why it was used in Victorian times (religion and conservative attitudes to sex).

From there, I acknowledge that Balfour could have used wages to mean financial gain - there's always the chance. But, based on the evidence of this being an idiom and how it was actually used in Victorian times it is highly unlikely.

So, as it stands, I'll go with a 99% chance of this meaning punishment for one's sins - based on the above and earlier posts.

My point is this: if someone is hung up on pimping then they need to provide evidence of this phrase being used to mean pimping in order to move the % towards 50 and therefore engender a decent case for his/her argument.

The evidence is there for punishment for all to see with a quick google - is the evidence there to mean pimiping? That is the challenge!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. But wouldn't "thriving" seem to indicate something like "doing well financially"?

Cheers.
LC

Lynn:

'Thriving' could mean whatever Balfour had in his mind.

But, let's be clear: the suggestion of pimping came about because it was believed that 'wages' meant financial gain. It is not the case.

So, once you accept that 'wages of sin' means punishment for one's actions then you are left guessing as to what Balfour had in mind in terms of what constitutes 'thriving'.

Now, guessing hardly constitutes proof - and I believe Tom's bottom line (as said by him on one post) was that the pimping/wages angle nailed Le Grand.

Once you accept that Balfour is talking about punishment for one's actions, then you could come up with over 100 guesses as to what Balfour meant by 'thriving'.

Making financial gain over a 100/1 shot.

By all means, if anyone wants to argue that 'wages of sin' means financial gain then do show that Victorians used the idiom to mean that - there are countless examples in google to show it meant otherwise.

Post that, then by all means estimate that 'thriving' meant pimping, but do please acknowledge that there are a boat load of other things that 'thriving' could mean in this context, thereby rendering pimiping, although not impossible, a wild stab in the dark.

[Phil H]

Your challenge is to find evidence of Victorians using this phrase in a manner meaning financial gain.

With respect, no it is NOT! If anything it is for you to demonstrate that it could ONLY mean what you believe it did.

I have given two examples of how I believe the phrase might have been used in a comedic, witty or ironic sense. If you are not comfortable with those, I am sorry - but they are entirely consistent with the wit and usage of the 1880s/90s.

Maria is quite right.

Phil

[mariab]

Just as a by the by, Lynn, can I email you about some research and ideas in about a week or so? I took a couple of weeks off (riding indoors for a few events, then staying with a friend by a lake), and I need a few more days off, then to take care of a deadline. I hope you're fine, and not too overworked.

[lynn cates]

thriving

Hello Mac. But wouldn't "thriving" seem to indicate something like "doing well financially"?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I don't need to repeat myself ad infinitum. See Phil H.'s post #171 and my post #172 again. The evidence boils down to the fact that the original significance of the Victorian expression in question does NOT make any sense whatsoever in Balfour's quote.

[Fleetwood Mac]

as a Victorian would call it.

And, I suppose this is the issue.

I can find countless examples of 'wages of sin' meaning other than financial gain in Victorian times.

Can you find one example of it meaning financial gain?

The proof's in the pudding as they say!

What we have here is me showing you in what context 'wages of sin' was actually used by Victorians; whereas you are jumping through hoops to argue it means something contrary to what the evidence is showing you.

There's no use replying with more supposition and mental acrobatics.

Your challenge is to find evidence of Victorians using this phrase in a manner meaning financial gain.

Until you've done this then the conclusion must always be that I have provided evidence from Victorian times to support the meaning of 'wages of sin' - and there are countless examples all meaning punishment or retribution and not financial gain.

From there, it's up to you whether you ignore the evidence because it's not what you want to hear.

[mariab]

Dictionary definitions, even literary quotes will not necessarily reveal how a phrase is used in common parlance {...}. We simply cannot say and surely have to accept a degree of ambiguity?
{...} I could imagine someone saying, colloquially {...} of a successful courtesan: "She did well out of her profession: for her the wages of sin were a country house and a carriage!"

Precisely, Phil.

Fleetwood Mac,
I'm not witholding assent about the standard significance of “reaping the wages of their sin“ in Victorian English. The problem is that this expression, used traditionally, doesn't make any sense whatsoever in Balfour's quote: What? The alleged suspect in question was supposed to be thriving in the fact that the prostitutes he frequented were affected by veneral diseases (as a “punishment for their sins“), as an active punter? Surely makes sense. :-)
Balfour's quote is to be understood in 2 ways:
- The suspect/punter in question was thriving in the prostitutes' state of misery, as a sadist.
- Or, taken literally: The suspect in question was a pimp, “reaping the wages of sin“, as a Victorian would call it.

[Phil H]

Google it: 'wages of sin' was a common Victorian expression, related to Victorian attitudes on sex and religion.

But people can use well-known phrases, ironically, wittily, sarcastically... Shakespeare and his contemporaries did this a good deal. It is part of the marvel that is the English language.

There can be a "knowing" wink to the reader or interlocutor - aren't I being clever!

I could imagine someone saying, colloquially: "Ah, but the wages of sin is drink!!" or of a successful courtesan: "She did well out of her profession: for her the wages of sin were a country house and a carriage!"

You will not find a reference to it meaning 'pimping' or financial gain. But you will find every reference to it being associated with another common English idiom: "reaping what you sow".

Dictionary definitions, even literary quotes will not necessarily reveal how a phrase is used in common parlance, and while a Wildism might find its way into the record, those of lesser men might not. We simply cannot say and surely have to accept a degree of ambiguity?

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

If “wages of their sin“ were to be understood in this traditional/religious sense, as “their metaphysical misery“, it doesn't make sense whatsoever that the alleged suspect discussed by Balfour “was thriving on the prostitutes metaphysical misery“ (sic). It's more plausible that Balfour is using a faulty metaphor here in a literal sense, suggesting, in a flowery fashion, that the individual in question was a pimp.

Maria,

The above is mental acrobatics in an attempt to suggest he was describing a pimp.

It would make perfect sense.

He is saying: "the man thrived on their predicament" (the wages of their sin being condemned to be at the mercy of people like the man in question).

I would like to point you to this Maria:

Divine retribution

In Victorian days the official line on sex was that it was solely for the purpose of producing children. It wasn't supposed to be fun. So, however tolerant the Victorians may have been in practice of men having sexual adventures, venereal disease was, in some quarters, regarded as God's punishment - the wages of sin.

It is from the link beneath:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/victorians-uncovered/articles/the-wages-of-sin

Quite clearly, in Victorian times: wages of sin meant punishment for the sinner (not financial gain for the extortioner).

Google it: 'wages of sin' was a common Victorian expression, related to Victorian attitudes on sex and religion.

You will not find a reference to it meaning 'pimping' or financial gain. But you will find every reference to it being associated with another common English idiom: "reaping what you sow". And, tellingly the subject in these idioms is not Grainger or Le Grand; it is the prostitute, i.e. wages meaning her punishment as opposed to anyone's financial gain.