LeGrand conspiracy

[Wickerman]

Grand & Batchelor (as Private Detectives) make their first appearance at the Stride murder, has anyone come across any paperwork which might answer the question, "who hired them?".

Because Grand & Batchelor brought Packer to Sir Charles Warren, I had assumed it was CW who might have hired them - if so, "why?"

Would CW hire a criminal (Grand) to do detective work on behalf of the Gov't?

Any thoughts along these lines?

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

Debs, do you refer to his indictment on November 16 1891, about the forged bill of exchange supposed to be drawn by W. Ashburnham etc.? Or are there other bank frauds as well?
And which of his crimes was the one to have taken up 2 years in the planning, if I may ask?

[Debra A]

'Le Grand' was the stupidest crook that ever was born.

Oh, I'll just go and terrorise Lady So and So in Grosvenor Square.

Yeah, sure.

I object! One of his crimes was two years in the planning, and god knows how many times he pulled the same scam and got away with it. Just that MAM had big balls.
His1891 bank frauds were extraordinary in their planning,described as 'ingenious' by the judge..just that somone smarter was on to him....

[mariab]

Mmm, I'm afraid that family trees is my all time weakest spot. I know it's an essential research method, but, to be honest, I'd rather eat bricks than do it. Plus it doesn't help that I'm semi-retarded in recognizing or grasping more complex family ties than mother/father/brother/sister/first cousin.
But I'll do censuses, hopefully (at some point) financial records, and look up for a listing/book about Danish diplomats. Right now I'm still reading Rip back issues, and my other first priority is to go through some CIA reports Lynn Cates sent me (about the Okhrana). Plus this week is kinda busy, with getting back to work and tons of neglected stuff to take care of.
It's not easy being a newbie...

[Debra A]

Oh, I wasn't aware at all that we're not sure if Baroness' Bolsover stepson Cavendish Bentinck and the MP Cavendish Bentinck were cousins. I assume that this is easy to establish, if one has the patience to go through their family tree? (What fun.)

Try it sometime, Maria!

[mariab]

Fairly accurate, except I said that I got only the name of the M.P. from Monaghans book and none of the other stuff which is all my own bumph.

Hi Debs, many apologies for not stating more clearly in my improvised footnote that you got only the MPs name (George Cavendish Bentinck) from Monaghan, and that all the rest is from your own research.

I said they may be cousins and I said that the Bentincks took on the double barelled Cavendish c 1801...from female intervention, and if the Cavendish's of Phoenix Park were related it was way out there and not significant.

Oh, I wasn't aware at all that we're not sure if Baroness' Bolsover stepson Cavendish Bentinck and the MP Cavendish Bentinck were cousins. I assume that this is easy to establish, if one has the patience to go through their family tree? (What fun.)
As for the Cavendish Bentincks being related to Lord Frederick Cavendish of Phoenix Park fame, even if they were related, it looks like the MP Cavendish Bentinck and Lord Frederick Cavendish pursued different political agendas.

[Debra A]

Quote Stephen Thomas:
Oh, I'll just go and terrorise Lady So and So in Grosvenor Square.


You know perfectly well that he means the 1st Baroness Bolsover, blackmailed by Le Grand. She was the widow of Arthur Cavendish Bentnick (deceased in 1877) and she had 3 sons, Henry, William Augustus, and Charles, plus a stepson named William John Arthur Charles James (now that's an impressive bunch of names), 6th Duke of Portland. He was the stepson of the Baroness Bolsover and not the MP George Cavendish Bentinck, who opposed W.T. Stead's movement because he allegedly enjoyed prostitutes, as he was implicated in the Cleveland Street scandal. The MP George CB was the only son of Lord Frederick Cavendish Bentinck, and the cousin of Baroness Bolsover's stepson*. So it might be true (or not) that Le Grand had met Baroness Bolsover, as he claimed in his letter(s).
(*Courtesy of Debra Arif, from Monahan's book.)
As for Lord Frederick Cavendish, the murder victim at Phoenix Park, Debs says that he was probably related with the Cavendish Bentincks from their grandmother's side or before, but much earlier than the 1880s/1890s. Doesn't appear that they were related politically.

Hi Maria,...Fairly accurate, except I said that I got only the name of the M.P. from Monaghans book and none of the other stuff which is all my own bumph. I said they may be cousins and I said that the Bentincks took on the double barelled Cavendish c 1801...from female intervention, and if the Cavendish's of Phoenix Park were related it was way out there and not significant.

[mariab]

The amount of crimes Le Grand must have gotten away with is staggering. He was off his rocker by the time of the Grosvenor Square fiasco.

I suspect this too about more crimes by him having remained undetected (so far). Obviously, like most criminals, he decompensated in the end (before he got arrested for good), but even at Berner Street he certainly didn't illustrate modest wants: Starting out a detective agency, directing the WVC, informer for The Evening News, possibly playing both sides of the street pertaining to the IWEC, planting evidence and indoctrinating several witnesses in a murder investigation, plus a full time job as a pimp and an intimidator of the girls working for him. That's quite a lot of tasks for one guy. Something had to give?

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, I know to whom he's referring, though I don't see how that makes him the stupidest crook. The amount of crimes Le Grand must have gotten away with is staggering. He was off his rocker by the time of the Grosvenor Square fiasco.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Quote Stephen Thomas:
Oh, I'll just go and terrorise Lady So and So in Grosvenor Square.

????
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott

You know perfectly well that he means the 1st Baroness Bolsover, blackmailed by Le Grand. She was the widow of Arthur Cavendish Bentnick (deceased in 1877) and she had 3 sons, Henry, William Augustus, and Charles, plus a stepson named William John Arthur Charles James (now that's an impressive bunch of names), 6th Duke of Portland. He was the stepson of the Baroness Bolsover and not the MP George Cavendish Bentinck, who opposed W.T. Stead's movement because he allegedly enjoyed prostitutes, as he was implicated in the Cleveland Street scandal. The MP George CB was the only son of Lord Frederick Cavendish Bentinck, and the cousin of Baroness Bolsover's stepson*. So it might be true (or not) that Le Grand had met Baroness Bolsover, as he claimed in his letter(s).
(*Courtesy of Debra Arif, from Monahan's book.)
As for Lord Frederick Cavendish, the murder victim at Phoenix Park, Debs says that he was probably related with the Cavendish Bentincks from their grandmother's side or before, but much earlier than the 1880s/1890s. Doesn't appear that they were related politically.

[mariab]

'Le Grand' was the stupidest crook that ever was born. Oh, I'll just go and terrorise Lady So and So in Grosvenor Square.
Yeah, sure.

That he was. But is there any other kind of crook? Plus he probably thought he was very smart. Concocting intricate schemes (“complicated theories“?), which most of the time (duh) didn't work as planned. Still, the grapestalk almost worked, as the urban legend very stubbornly remains in some casebook threads – and in From Hell.
It might even be that some folks might have given in and payed him extortion money. Tom Wescott and Debra Arif know the details pertaining to this.

[Tom_Wescott]

'Le Grand' was the stupidest crook that ever was born.

Oh, I'll just go and terrorise Lady So and So in Grosvenor Square.

Yeah, sure.

????

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stephen Thomas]

'Le Grand' was the stupidest crook that ever was born.

Oh, I'll just go and terrorise Lady So and So in Grosvenor Square.

Yeah, sure.

[mariab]

I don't recall ever having endorsed a theory that could be called 'complicated'.

That's correct, and neither have I.

My memory isn't what it used to be, but again I don't recall ever having a 'problem' with Pipeman's physical description in a witness' testimony. In fact, I don't even know what it means. But if you provided a 'comprehensive resolution' to my 'problem', I thank you for that.

Tom, I apologize. My joke was quite a bit off. What I meant is that the circumstantial evidence about Pipeman matching Le Grand's physical description contains a problem if Schwartz concocted his story from scratch, but my “theory“/suspicion that William Wess might have thrown in the Pipeman-part possibly to intimidate Le Grand is not only a plausible scenario, but it also covers all possibilities. Of course, it requires to be researched (as it will).

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, as you've insisted so many times (remember the “Lynn Cates stolen theory“?), you yourself are the one who came up with the “complicated theories involving the IWEC“!

I don't recall ever having endorsed a theory that could be called 'complicated'.

If truth be told, you did had a bit of a problem with Pipeman's physical description in a witness' testimony which is considered controversial, and I'm the one who came up with a comprehensive resolution for this problem, so I'd say you should be really thankful to me for saving your as* in this case.

My memory isn't what it used to be, but again I don't recall ever having a 'problem' with Pipeman's physical description in a witness' testimony. In fact, I don't even know what it means. But if you provided a 'comprehensive resolution' to my 'problem', I thank you for that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott