Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[GUT]

It was Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath.

I know that the Sabbath is Saturday, but what day is it claimed Koz wouldn't pay his bills, if it was Saturday I see nothing unusual in it, many [or perhaps I should say some] Jews strictly observe the Sabbath today on the other hand if it was Sunday, as Fisherman says, it needs some serious explanation.

[Fisherman]

I just think this kind of speculation is pointless, because there's nothing in the reports to suggest that he had been pushed around or even that he was walking somebody's dog for him.

But to each his own.

Well, Kosminski did say that the dog was not his, and the obvious thing to believe would be that he was thus walking the dog for somebody else. Named Jacobs, as it turns out.

But if this is going to descend into the realms of "each to his own" again, there will probably not be much point in discussing it any further. You have chosen your stance, and if you want to frown on otherīs takes on things, itīs your prerogative.

The best,
Fisherman

[GUT]

I also wonder if a Jew, so observant that he refused to pay bills on the Sabbath, would kill on the Sabbath?

[lynn cates]

Quando in Romae, age sicut Romani.

Hello Christer. Perhaps young Aaron had adopted Christian principles? At any rate, the court seems to have readily accepted his view.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

I also wonder if a Jew, so observant that he refused to pay bills on the Sabbath, would kill on the Sabbath?

Thatīs a fair question. Of course, we may need to make exceptions for mad Jews - but the dog business was AFTER the Ripper killings, so you do have a good point.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Perhaps young Aaron had adopted Christian principles? At any rate, the court seems to have readily accepted his view.

Cheers.
LC

Once you dip your toes into the Sabbath/not Sabbath waters, you will realize that the depths underneath you are impenetrable...
But as you say, what matters here is that the court accepted Kosminskiīs request. They would arguably have had standards for it. And they would have been very much aware that Saturday is Jewish Sabbath.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jonathan H]

No, Paul, according to the Swanson Marginalia, "Kosminski" confessed in the sense that he must have given the game away to those present:

'... and after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London...after the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with great difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified.

This is very important because everybody was aware by 1910 in the wake of the Adolph Beck debacle that witnesses could be very wrong. This point is made by Mentor in his demolition of a mortified Anderson:

"The Jewish Chronicle", March 4th 1910:

'... Sir Robert would have us believe that there were Jews who knew the person who was committing the abominable crimes and yet carefully shielded him from the police. A more wicked assertion to put into print, without the shadow of evidence, I have seldom seen. The man whom Scotland Yard "suspected," subsequently, says Sir Robert, "was caged in an asylum." He was never brought to trial - nothing except his lunacy was proved against him. This lunatic presumably was a Jew, and because he was "suspected," as a result of the police "theory" I have mentioned, Sir Robert ventures to tell the story he does, as if he were stating facts, forgetting that such a case as that of Adolph Beck was ever heard of.'

How do you answer a point like that?

Well, in private, with a retired acolyte, you could say that not only was the suspect identified the latter made it clear by his actions/facial reactions that he knew that we knew that he knew, and so on.

You say the Marginalia was not for publication. No, it most certainly was not for publication. Because the story told there is self-serving, inaccurate and implausible, and would have withered under the slightest touch had it escaped into the open air (enough of what Anderson did say was ridiculed by Smith and Macnaghten).

In effect, it is empty bragging whilst unfairly laying the blame for failure on others.

The writing is Swanson's, but the voice is Anderson's.

[Monty]

The waters surrounding my original points and comments have somewhat been muddied

So we still have not established how Aaron Kosminski (if it was him) arrived at the seaside home for the purpose of taking part in this ID parade and there lies the rub of the green.

The only two officers who talk of this ID are Anderson and Swanson. Considering such an important case and what would turn out to be such an important outcome, these are the only two who ever talk of it. Did they keep this positive Id to themselves, seems to be the case as no other officers senior or otherwise knew of it. Is that believable, the answer is no.

Lets look again at the ID we know there were no witnesses who ever saw the murderer commit the crimes. So as has been said who could the witness have been?

As the Met were instigating this we can assume that perhaps the witness was Schwartz. Now working on that basis and knowing that the City also had a witness why didn't the Met involve the city and take along Lawende?

Note there is nothing in any City records or in later years from any senior city officer to support this, or to support the subsequent observations which were supposedly carried out.

All of this hangs on the last sentence in the Marginalia "Kosminski was the suspect" and if Swanson did not write that last sentence then Kosminski goes out the window because MM had eliminated him by the time the marginalia was supposed to have been written

And MM was Swansons superior officer !

On a final note it has been suggested that perhaps Kosminski was already in an asylum. Well if that be the case why not do the ID there. Why go to all the trouble of conveying him down to the seaside. It would be easier to convey the witness from the seaside home to London.

As I have said before if he were not in an asylum why not carry out the ID at a local police station?

My conclusions are that it did not take as has been described and it was mixed up with Sadler where seaside and seamens home have been mixed up

Pressed the reset button huh?

As Chris states, we are aware of Kosminski's dog incident via press reports, not any official report.

Monty

[Monty]

Hello Neil.

"And are you expecting a charge of murder, bearing in mind Kosminski's alleged mental state at the time?

It is pretty clear that Kosminski was going to be incarcerated (if he was Aaron), and indeed he was. You assume they were looking for prosecution which, under law, would not have occurred because, as a former detective, you would surely be aware that the insane cannot stand trial."

Absolutely. But I wonder whether this would not take the wind from the sails of the "he did not testify as it would have hanged him" argument?

Cheers.
LC

Depends on who the witness and how aware they were, of the situation.

Again, many assume it was a legal matter. Thats understandable however there is another possibility, more concerning Judaism than law.

Monty

[Wickerman]

Hello Paul, hope you are well.

Hi Jonathan,
But Macnaghten states that there were "many circs" which made "Kosminski" a suspect. We don't know what they were or who brought them to the fore.

These "circs" must not have been conclusive, perhaps only family gossip?

If it was Lawende then he would have seen the suspect talking with a woman identified by her clothing as Eddowes. Even if the suspect acknowledged that he was the man Lawende saw, that doesn't make him Jack the Ripper.

Quite so, and I'm inclined to agree Lawende did not necessarily see the murderer.

[Chris]

You have chosen your stance, and if you want to frown on otherīs takes on things, itīs your prerogative.

My "stance" is to stick to the facts. I just frown on unevidenced speculation.

[Chris]

Here it is, from the Times:

“Aaron Kosminki was summoned for a similar offence. Police Constable Borer said he saw the defendant with an unmuzzled dog, and when asked his name gave that of Aaron Kosminski, which his brother said was wrong, as his name was Abrahams.Defendant said that the dog was not his, and his brother said it was found more convenient here to go by the name of Abrahams, but his name was Kosminski. Sir Polydore de Keyser imposed a fine of 10s. and costs. which the defendant would not pay, as it was not right to pay money on Sunday. He was given till Monday to pay.”

It clearly states that it "was not right" to pay on a Sunday, and I can only reason that it would have been related to religious issues. Maybe others out here can elaborate on it. At any rate, the court apparently readily accepted it.

I'm afraid that's a mistranscribed version of a report in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, 15 December 1889, originally posted by Robert Linford. The full report actually read:

Aaron Kosminski was summoned for a similar offence.- Police-constable Borer said he saw the defendant with an unmuzzled dog, and when asked his name gave that of Aaron Kosminski, which his brother said was wrong, as his name was Abrahams.- Defendant said that the dog was not his, and his brother said it was found more convenient here to go by the name of Abrahams, but his name was Kosminski.- Sir Polydore de Keyser imposed a fine of 10s. and costs, which the defendant would not pay as it was the Jewish Sunday, and it was not right to pay money on Sunday. He was given till Monday to pay.

Obviously "the Jewish Sunday" means Saturday.

[GUT]

Thank you Chris now it makes sense.

[Jonathan H]

Is there not a danger of being too narrow, of missing the wood for the trees?

[Errata]

Not that anyone ever became a serial killer because of their religion, or even arranged their serial killer duties around their religion, but I feel it's important to point out how the Sabbath works.

The Sabbath is from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Sundown happens a lot earlier after the fall equinox, and rarely after 7pm at any point in the year. Annie Chapman was the only person in the c5 murdered on the Sabbath.

So depending on what victim combinations you favor, and how important you think the Sabbath may have been to the killer, keep that in mind.