Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Fisherman]

Hey Christer

This proves nothing, but may be suggestive.

Aaron's brother, Woolf, had three sons with WWI records. Two of them give their height and build:


Harry - 5ft 2" Expanded chest 32"

Joseph - 5ft 3.75" Expanded chest 34 inches

Little, quite slender blokes.

Was Aaron like this?

The Leavesden notes seem to reinforce the suggestion, at least. But thatīs all we can say. The balance of probabilitites does speak for a small, slender man, and these notations about his nephews (Woolf was his brother) do nothing to dissolve that picture.

Contrary to what Jeff says, I find that instead of all finds pointing to Aaron being the Ripper they actually lead me away from that conclusion. I feel more certain about that today than I did in the pre-shawl days.

All the best,
Fisherman

[wolfie1]

Hi Wolfie,

As I say, when I suggested what you just did, I was corrected and having checked, I was rightly corrected. The attached gives the basics.

Yes, I understand that is what was published back in 2010. But is not the full story as I know it....will leave it at that.
Wolfie

[mickreed]

Hi Mick,

For me the key issues in all of this long saga are nexus and provenance. Thus, applying the most favorable interpretation of the evidence, let us accept provisionally that Eddowes' genetic material is on the garment together with other genetic material relating to Kosminski's mtDNA. What would that actually prove? I mean, assuming that around 90.000 Londoners in 1888 shared Kosminski's haplogroup, why would it be any more likely to be his genetic material than any one of the other 90,000 individuals?

What is required is something more. Firstly, clear provenance regarding the scarf so that we can at least postulate that the genetic material may have been deposited in 1888. Secondly, some nexus connecting Kosminski directly to Eddowes or another victim.

As regards provenance, this is virtually non existent, relying on some story about Amos Simpson and the shawl that appears to have been passed down through the ages like some generational Chinese whispers.

As regards nexus, it seems to me that all we have at the moment to connect Kosminski to the murders is an unreliable identification, possibly but not necessarily at the Seaside Home, of some one who may or may not have been Kosminski, by an unreliable witness, possibly Lawende, not, several years after the event!

No arguments with most of that John, and, if the discussions in other threads are even half-right, then even the 'Eddowes match' is looking very dodgy.

[mickreed]

He had other brothers, another one was Isaac.. Betsys maiden name was Kosminski.
Only one brother was acknowledged on his burial stone. The other was possibly dead by 1919

Hi Wolfie,

As I say, when I suggested what you just did, I was corrected and having checked, I was rightly corrected. The attached gives the basics.

[Theagenes]

Hello Theagenes.

"this certainly changes everything and requires explanations. Without the Eddowes match, this really is much ado about nothing."

Yes, this was ALL a fool's errand--the shawl lacks a believable provenance.

But for some reason, everyone goes crazy when hearing the word "science."

Cheers.
LC

Nonsense. Trying to get at the truth is not a fool's errand nor did anyone here go crazy. New evidence was presented by Jari and Edwards, some of us who weren't scared of it did the best we could to evaluate what was presentated (in a very unsatisfactory way by Edwards), and we pointed out the flaws in it as well as the possible strengths, pending the presentation of further information. New information has now come to light that casts doubt on the one strong piece of evidence presented (the Miller-shawl match) and that needs to be re-evaluated. This is what rational people without agenda's do.

The closest thing to crazy I've seen in this thread are the people who cling to any anecdotal tidbit they can if it feed's their own confirmation bias -- like someone putting their hands over their ears, closing their eyes, while sitting in the corner, rocking back and forth, chanting "Edwardian table runner" over and over again. I have seen behavior like that -- metaphorically speaking of course.

[John G]

Nexus and provenance

Thanks to a colleague, I got the book early and have also finished it. It's indeed less than compelling. I don't mean the science, per se, but its presentation, and the conclusions drawn from it. And as for the non-science. Well, don't get me started! Not yet, anyway.

Someone said, several squillion posts back, that the only real strength they could see in the book, was the strong possibility - if confirmed - that there was a link between Karen Miller's DNA, and some found on the shawl.

I'd second that. And I'd also say. That is interesting.

Hi Mick,

For me the key issues in all of this long saga are nexus and provenance. Thus, applying the most favorable interpretation of the evidence, let us accept provisionally that Eddowes' genetic material is on the garment together with other genetic material relating to Kosminski's mtDNA. What would that actually prove? I mean, assuming that around 90.000 Londoners in 1888 shared Kosminski's haplogroup, why would it be any more likely to be his genetic material than any one of the other 90,000 individuals?

What is required is something more. Firstly, clear provenance regarding the scarf so that we can at least postulate that the genetic material may have been deposited in 1888. Secondly, some nexus connecting Kosminski directly to Eddowes or another victim.

As regards provenance, this is virtually non existent, relying on some story about Amos Simpson and the shawl that appears to have been passed down through the ages like some generational Chinese whispers.

As regards nexus, it seems to me that all we have at the moment to connect Kosminski to the murders is an unreliable identification, possibly but not necessarily at the Seaside Home, of some one who may or may not have been Kosminski, by an unreliable witness, possibly Lawende, but maybe not, several years after the event!

[wolfie1]

I thought we'd been through this Wolfie. That's what I thought too, but was quickly corrected by others. In any event, these people are Aaron's nephews.

He had other brothers, another one was Isaac.. Betsys maiden name was Kosminski.
Only one brother was acknowledged on his burial stone. The other was possibly dead by 1919

[mickreed]

Woolf Abrahams was not Aaron's brother, Woolf was married to Aaron's sister

Cheers
Wolfie

I thought we'd been through this Wolfie. That's what I thought too, but was quickly corrected by others. In any event, these people are Aaron's nephews.

[wolfie1]

Hey Christer

This proves nothing, but may be suggestive.

Aaron's brother, Woolf, had three sons with WWI records. Two of them give their height and build:


Harry - 5ft 2" Expanded chest 32"

Joseph - 5ft 3.75" Expanded chest 34 inches

Little, quite slender blokes.

Was Aaron like this?

Woolf Abrahams was not Aaron's brother, Woolf was married to Aaron's sister

Cheers
Wolfie

[mickreed]

My brother is 172 centimeters tall and weighs around 70 kilos. I am 193 centimeters and weigh around 110 kilos.

Close relatives are not moulded to the same shape or size, Jeff. 48 kilograms and fair bodily health points much more to a small, slender man than to a strong, stocky guy. And that does not take his cousin into account - since it really should not.

All the best,
Fisherman

Hey Christer

This proves nothing, but may be suggestive.

Aaron's brother, Woolf, had three sons with WWI records. Two of them give their height and build:


Harry - 5ft 2" Expanded chest 32"

Joseph - 5ft 3.75" Expanded chest 34 inches

Little, quite slender blokes.

Was Aaron like this?

[PaulB]

Jeff
I have seen to many comparisons being made on here between JTR and modern day serial killers which I think is wrong.

Where do modern day serial killers get their motives and ideas about mutilation and cannibalism from, other killers that have preceded them and what they did to their victims etc.

JTR did not have the benefit of that did he that is why we must seriously question all that he is supposed to have done in connection with these murders. When you do that there is a clear case to dispute what he is supposed to have done to the victims and more importantly there is a case to suggest one killer was not responsible for all the murders.

I have not come across any murders before JTR where a victim had their organs surgically removed in the street in a short period of time. But there a more modern recent cases when this happened so were did the more recent killers get their motives and ideas from JTR perhaps?

This man JTR has a lot to answer for !

I didn't realise you were knowledgeable about serial killers in Eastern Europe, who, if Kosminski was the murderer, were the people who would have influenced him, assuming one accepts that serial killers learn from the serial killers who went before them. Anyway, I would have thought that Eastern Europe, with their traditions of vampires and werewolves, would have furnished lots of examples of Ripper-like serial killings.

[Fisherman]

Jeff Leahy:

Well thats the only way you could square it off..

... so thatīs how we are gonna do it?

And thats not without good reason. I spent some time talking and going over the early on set of schizophrenia. Aaron at 22 years of age would be fairly typical. Possibly high achiever. Disrupted background.

Possibly high achiever? Aha. And possibly not? It doesīnt work for me, Jeff. Why would we shoehorn in things in one end and then conveniently look away from the non-correlation between his symptoms and what the Ripper did in the other end.

But certainly early episodes I was described would fit an 12-18 week pattern

And that is coincidently the length of the autumn of Terror

Which in itīs turn is a chosen line of victims. How does it fit with Bonds contentions, fitting MacKenzie in, for example? Itīs fitting the target to the arrow again!

Ah yes we are back to Sir Robert Anderson

'Undiscovered crimes in London are rare, and the Jack the Ripper crimes are not within that category'

I guess we'll just have to differ on our conclusions on Sir Robert

Well, Jeff, I wonīt be the one to tear up that. If you do your bit, I most certainly will do mine!

The best,
Fisherman

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Fish

Please note I'm not coming to this from the angle 'other compatible crimes were the result of psychosis possibly schizophrenia'

I'm look at what Anderson and Swanson say…

And at first glance Aaron doesn't look violent or like a typical paranoid serial killer. A point obviously noted by Martin Fido (Incidently one of my great heroes) He was looking for a very different and violent type of killer.

That's because perceived psychological wisdom back in the 1980's was that that was what he should be looking for..

I'm just saying that perhaps thats wrong because if the killer was suffering a form of hebephrenic schizophrenia in the very early stages… Then we would be looking at someone who was later, not only harmless but also unable to commit further murders.

So i'm looking at what is known and asking could Aaron fit… And I think that possible. I'm not equating Aaron condition is rare with Jack the Ripper is rare.. Although I think both statements would be true..

Even Trevor Marriot seems to accept the rarity of Jack the Ripper. He just concludes the murders were by different people. But given the rarity of mutilation murder in London 1888 per ce…I'd argue the opposite

Many thanks

Jeff

Jeff
Let me qualify what I said. I believe that Nichols Chapman and Eddowes are the most likely to have been the work of the same killer. They are the three that have the most significant and identifying features and characteristics.

Apologies for going off topic

[Jeff Leahy]

So how should we fit the diminutive, meek Aaron Kosminski into that role...? Well, obviously by suggesting that he could have been all those things earlier in his life.

Well thats the only way you could square it off..

And thats not without good reason. I spent some time talking and going over the early on set of schizophrenia. Aaron at 22 years of age would be fairly typical. Possibly high achiever. Disrupted background.

But certainly early episodes I was described would fit an 12-18 week pattern

And that is coincidently the length of the autumn of Terror

And then we complete the circle by saying that Anderson suggested this, as did MacNaghten. And we look away from the known fact that the police searched the asylums since they had come to accept that they were dealing with a madman, half man half beast, as the press would have it.

Somebody said before that we should not paint the concentric rings of a shooting target around where the arrow has landed. I think that was exactly what Anderson did. We should not follow suit.

All the best,
Fisherman

Ah yes we are back to Sir Robert Anderson

'Undiscovered crimes in London are rare, and the Jack the Ripper crimes are not within that category'

I guess we'll just have to differ on our conclusions on Sir Robert

Yours Jeff

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish

Please note I'm not coming to this from the angle 'other compatible crimes were the result of psychosis possibly schizophrenia'

I'm look at what Anderson and Swanson say…

And at first glance Aaron doesn't look violent or like a typical paranoid serial killer. A point obviously noted by Martin Fido (Incidently one of my great heroes) He was looking for a very different and violent type of killer.

That's because perceived psychological wisdom back in the 1980's was that that was what he should be looking for..

I'm just saying that perhaps thats wrong because if the killer was suffering a form of hebephrenic schizophrenia in the very early stages… Then we would be looking at someone who was later, not only harmless but also unable to commit further murders.

So i'm looking at what is known and asking could Aaron fit… And I think that possible. I'm not equating Aaron condition is rare with Jack the Ripper is rare.. Although I think both statements would be true..

Even Trevor Marriot seems to accept the rarity of Jack the Ripper. He just concludes the murders were by different people. But given the rarity of mutilation murder in London 1888 per ce…I'd argue the opposite

Many thanks

Jeff

Itīs good to hear that you are not proposing that suffering rare mental conditions automatically makes people become rare serial killers.

As for Kosminski possibly being the killer, I cannot rule it out totally - but I think that he is a very bad bid, going by what we know of his mental disease. It points away from him, not towards him.

Anderson and Swanson; well other people involved in the investigation said no. Emphatically. Andersons successor said no, albeit less emphatically. And he still suffered from the misinformation that Kosminski was a crafty maniac, a homicidal madman with a great hatred for prostitutes.

So how should we fit the diminutive, meek Aaron Kosminski into that role...? Well, obviously by suggesting that he could have been all those things earlier in his life.

And then we complete the circle by saying that Anderson suggested this, as did MacNaghten. And we look away from the known fact that the police searched the asylums since they had come to accept that they were dealing with a madman, half man half beast, as the press would have it.

Somebody said before that we should not paint the concentric rings of a shooting target around where the arrow has landed. I think that was exactly what Anderson did.

We should not follow suit.

All the best,
Fisherman