A Case of Misattribution?

[Abby Normal]

Agreed, Mike. The sequence of events described by Schwartz suggests to my mind that Stride knew her attacker and had no suspicion that she was in serious or imminent danger. The three quiet screams confirm this beyond any reasonable doubt. I therefore think it likely that she entered Dutfield’s Yard willingly in order to pacify Broad Shoulders and took the cachous from her pocket as a peace offering. At some point she did or said something that reignited Broad Shoulders’ anger and he made a grab for her neckerchief, pulled her to the ground, cut her throat, made the body less conspicuous by rolling it on to its left side, then immediately departed the crime scene.

Such a scenario does not in itself exclude the possibility that Broad Shoulders was a club member, but the cry of ‘Lipski!’ makes this unlikely in my view. On balance I consider it far more likely that Stride was killed by a jilted boyfriend, a fellow lodger or one of her pub acquaintances. Whoever he was, however, Stride knew him and didn’t consider him dangerous.

Hi Garry
I agree up to a point. I also think the the three not very loud screams point to her also knowing her attacker, but one she probably just met that night. The events and BS mans actions indicate a man who had spent some time money and effort (drinks in the pub,the flower, the multiple witnesses)to get Liz into a secluded spot for the pretense of sex and when she continued to refuse and a gave him a final refusal to go into dutfields yard he left her suddenly in frustration. Only to lose his temper a few moments later and to return to her and assault her. Schwartz enters the scene as BS has turned around to return to Stride.

I think BS man after the initial assault and Liz thinking he is just a pissed off punter (hence not the loud screams) pulls her into the yard and kills her and either because of the interuption from Schwartz and/or Diemschutz takes off after cutting her throat.

The insistance that her holding the cashous when the body was found as having to indicate a peacful normal alley way encounter between a prostitute and client is just plain wrong IMHO. Many a violently attacked and murdered person has been found still clutching something. She had probably been holding it prior to the attack when her and BS man were still in the "flirting" stage before he got angry.

-Schwartz was telling the truth.
-The club members were not nefarious conspirators, just witnesses.
-Liz was probably not solicitating that night, but more interested in finding a new man.
-BS man was a gentile, pissed off serial killer who was having a hard go at it with his first victim of the night.

[lynn cates]

clutching

Hello Abby.

"The insistance that her holding the cashous when the body was found as having to indicate a peacful normal alley way encounter between a prostitute and client is just plain wrong IMHO."

I'll say. Prostitute? Client? Not a bit of it.

"Many a violently attacked and murdered person has been found still clutching something."

Absolutely. But that object came out at some point and into the hand. And the CIRCUMSTANCES under which that may be done can be telling.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"The insistance that her holding the cashous when the body was found as having to indicate a peacful normal alley way encounter between a prostitute and client is just plain wrong IMHO."

I'll say. Prostitute? Client? Not a bit of it.

"Many a violently attacked and murdered person has been found still clutching something."

Absolutely. But that object came out at some point and into the hand. And the CIRCUMSTANCES under which that may be done can be telling.

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC
Absolutely. But that object came out at some point and into the hand. And the CIRCUMSTANCES under which that may be done can be telling.

I went back and added/edited this to my previous post:

She had probably been holding it prior to the attack when her and BS man were still in the "flirting" stage before he got angry.

[Abby Normal]

Maria,

I don't recall the exact words or the edition/date.

It does say something like: "the suspect was seen with the victim a few minutes before the body was discovered". It seems to be an authoritative piece in that other details are mentioned in the article that are factual.

My deduction is that this would discount Schwartz, as there is no mention of a struggle. And this would consign his entire story to the dustbin as quite clearly Stride was deemed to be a ripper victim and had Schwartz been believed then almost certainly he would have been deemed to have been the primary witness.

My problem with Lawende is that I find it a stretch to suggest that the murderer would have hanged based upon a sighting 10 minutes prior to the body having being found, but I suppose it depends upon whether or not they had some other piece of supporting evidence and the thought process of Swanson.

Also, I find it hard to believe that 'City PC' could be mistaken for city witness. It is an important event in the case and a senior policeman mistakenly claiming a policeman was the witness - well, it's a bit too much for me.

HI FM
I think the problem with IS not being a good witness in the polices eyes has more to do with him being a foreigner and not speaking English.

My problem with Lawende is that I find it a stretch to suggest that the murderer would have hanged based upon a sighting 10 minutes prior to the body having being found, but I suppose it depends upon whether or not they had some other piece of supporting evidence and the thought process of Swanson.

if they can misremember the Seaside home event as leaving no doubt who the killer was, they can certainly misremember the extent of Lawendes sighting.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Garry,

Additionally, IF Stride knew her attacker as you suggest, then the background information that she cleaned in the house(s) of a/some Jews is/are/could be relevant no?

Hypothesis only- waiting for a person she knew to come from the club in order to ask for/earn/advance her the rent money she needed that night? Attacked whilst waiting?

Best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Very well. So something like:

1. Liz and BS are flirting (perhaps you agree with the older view of Christer's in which he is the chap purportedly seen with Liz from G & B onward?).

2. Liz says, "Not tonight, some other night."

3. She bids him "good night" and puts the packet of cachous in her hand--perhaps to fiddle with--a nervous habit. Or, to retrieve one, then forgets to replace them in her pocket.

4. BS heads north--ostensibly towards home.

5. Around 12:45 he reappears, having found a source of alcohol.

6. He passes Liz and reproaches her.

7. Dovetail the Schwartz story.

Does this work?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Very well. So something like:

1. Liz and BS are flirting (perhaps you agree with the older view of Christer's in which he is the chap purportedly seen with Liz from G & B onward?).

2. Liz says, "Not tonight, some other night."

3. She bids him "good night" and puts the packet of cachous in her hand--perhaps to fiddle with--a nervous habit. Or, to retrieve one, then forgets to replace them in her pocket.

4. BS heads north--ostensibly towards home.

5. Around 12:45 he reappears, having found a source of alcohol.

6. He passes Liz and reproaches her.

7. Dovetail the Schwartz story.

Does this work?

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC some of it does

1. Liz and BS are flirting (perhaps you agree with the older view of Christer's in which he is the chap purportedly seen with Liz from G & B onward?).

I have always held this view-did not know Fish ever thought this.

2. Liz says, "Not tonight, some other night."

perhaps.

And re: Marshall sighting/hearing- "you'd say anything except your prayers" could have gone like this:

Liz (jokingly): Your not Leather Apron are you? (remember B&G made that comment to her earlier)
Man: You never know.
Liz: Well then, I better say my prayers.
Man: you would say anything except your prayers.

3. She bids him "good night" and puts the packet of cachous in her hand--perhaps to fiddle with--a nervous habit. Or, to retrieve one, then forgets to replace them in her pocket.

Perhaps. I would say she is holding the cachous in her hand any time while they are talking and walking and up to they reach Dutfield yard. I think once in front of the gates there conversation is like this:

Man: come on Luv, come into the yard with me. I will make it worth your time.
Liz: Perhaps some other time
Man(angrily): piss off then, Im done with you. (walks off).

4. BS heads north--ostensibly towards home

.
yes.

From here my sequence is:

BS man only gets up the street a bit before losing his temper and turns around and heads back to Liz. Enter Scwartz.

He assaults Liz (perhaps even cutting her throat at this point), scares off Schwartz, pulls her into the yard (perhaps cutting her throat at this point), leaves.

[Garry Wroe]

Your idea that Stride knew BS Man because she didn't scream loudly is not supported by the multiple accounts in the papers of LVP prostitutes, including some well-known ones to all of us, where the woman was attacked but didn't scream. Margaret Hames and Frances Coles' mate come immediately to mind.

Perhaps you know something I don’t, Tom, but I’m unaware of any evidence to indicate that the two women cited either screamed or didn’t scream whilst under attack. The fact that Coles’ associate remained anonymous means that we cannot be sure that she really was assaulted, much less that she failed to raise the alarm whilst being assaulted. The better approach, I would suggest, would be to concentrate on those incidents for which we have at least some corroboration. Mrs Humphreys is a typical case in point, and there are plenty more besides involving both prostitutes and non-prostitutes.

By contrast, Stride wasn't even punched, but merely pulled along and perhaps pushed.

She was manhandled, Tom, and then thrown to the ground by an aggressive, abusive drunk who cared nothing for the fact that his actions were being observed by two male onlookers. I somehow doubt that Stride would have viewed the incident as trivial as appears to be the case with your good self.

Had she known him, she would have been more likely to have acted out back, as fighting domestics typically did and do.

That, Tom, is an assumption which is borne out by none of the research I’ve ever seen.

With an angry stranger, however, you do as little to provoke him as you can.

It depends upon the circumstances and the personality of the victim, Tom. Few victims would offer much in the way of resistance with an assailant’s knife held to their throat, but most women when manhandled and then thrown to the ground by a stranger would raise the alarm in order to prevent a potentially dangerous situation escalating into something worse. Stride didn’t raise the alarm. Instead she screamed ‘not very loudly’. Given the climate of fear induced by the savagery of the recently perpetrated Nichols and Chapman murders, Stride’s quiet screams were a manifest indication that she was not in fear of her life. The overwhelming likelihood, therefore, is that she knew her assailant and was confident that she would come to no serious harm if she remained relatively compliant.

And it's been demonstrated that BS Man was almost certainly not Michael Kidney, yet there are no other men in her life known to us who she would have openly allowed to have behaved this way, or who would have had cause to.

None of us will ever know whether Kidney killed Stride, I’m afraid, Tom. Nor will we ever know how many other men the demonstrably duplicitous Stride was seeing besides Kidney. Neither will we ever know if she antagonized one or more of the dangerous characters from her lodgings or local drinking dens. She might have spread malicious gossip about one of these men or stolen from him. Someone might even have come to believe that she had informed the police about his criminal activities. There are many reasons why someone might have harboured a personal grievance against Stride, confronted her about it, then killed her in a fit of rage. Every day someone somewhere dies under similar circumstances. It’s simply a fact of life.

Then there's also the matter of location. Stride was tucked inside the dark gateway of the club yard and BS Man was merely walking by.

She was on the pavement, Tom. She must have been in order for Schwartz to have seen the initial exchange he described under police and press interview.

SHE would have initiated the conversation with HIM.

She may have initiated the conversation with him, Tom. If, on the other hand, Broad Shoulders was known to her and had deliberately sought her out, it is entirely possible that the assault was actuated without Stride uttering a word.

The actions described by Schwartz are the clear actions of a woman soliciting.

With respect, Tom, the actions described by yourself are the clear actions of a woman soliciting. Schwartz merely stated that Broad Shoulders stopped and spoke to a woman presumed to have been Stride. It may be the case that you are correct and Stride really was touting for business. But then if Stride was the woman seen by James Brown, her ‘Not tonight, Dearie’ type response to Longcoat is strongly suggestive that she was not actively soliciting immediately prior to the Broad Shoulders assault. If so, the truth of the matter may be that she had arranged to meet someone and was waiting by the gates in anticipation of his arrival. It is possible that she was waiting for Broad Shoulders himself, or perhaps even one of the club members. We simply don’t know.

[lynn cates]

sequitur

Hello Abby. Thanks.

"I have always held this view-did not know Fish ever thought this."

Hmm, you must chat him up sometime.

Regarding the cachous. If they come out BEFORE BS departs, why does she hold on to them? Nervous habit, as I suggested?

"From here my sequence is:

BS man only gets up the street a bit before losing his temper and turns around and heads back to Liz. Enter Schwartz."

Alright. Is he really tipsy or not? If he is, whence the alcohol between bidding Liz "Good night" and meeting her again?

"He assaults Liz (perhaps even cutting her throat at this point), . . . "

Hmm, that would explain why her screams were not loud (heh-heh).

". . . scares off Schwartz, pulls her into the yard (perhaps cutting her throat at this point), leaves."

I think the biggest problem is STILL the long hold on the cachous.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

The Pall Mall Gazette seems to clinch it for Schwartz not being the witness, which would appear to cast doubt on the perceived veracity of Schwartz's story as Stride was deemed to be a ripper victim.

Sorry, FM, but there was nothing mutually exclusive regarding these two conditions. Investigators clearly regarded Schwartz as a truthful and important witness whilst at the same time concluding that Stride was a Ripper victim.

[Garry Wroe]

Additionally, IF Stride knew her attacker as you suggest, then the background information that she cleaned in the house(s) of a/some Jews is/are/could be relevant no?

Absolutely, Phil.

Hypothesis only- waiting for a person she knew to come from the club in order to ask for/earn/advance her the rent money she needed that night? Attacked whilst waiting?

Anything's possible, Phil. She may even have been having an affair with one of the club members.

[Michael W Richards]

Israel Schwartz's story may well have been what he saw inside the gates when leaving the club through the side door, which ends up with Liz on the ground and BSM "assisting" her.

If thats the real story, then BSM could have been a gentile passing by and could have seen Liz inside the gates and assumed she was "working the streets", makes a rough advance on her and she rebuffs him,..he could be a Jew in the yard who sees Liz waiting around in the passage and decides in his drunken state to accost her, he could be someone who knows Liz is working for the Jews and he is caught up in the anti Jew sentiments of that time, he could be a security guard hired for the night who is really just a street tough and he accosts Liz, it could be someone who has feelings for her and is upset because she is dating a Jew instead, ....or it could be someone who is attempting to cast suspicion on the Club Jews for murder, and at that time by default, for perhaps even housing The Ripper.

BSM is drunk, he sidles up to Liz in the passageway with the idea to take her deeper into the yard for some fun, she resists, insults him. Tells him she isnt working tonight and takes out her cashous.He warns her about her smart mouth, pokes her hard in the chest a few times and grabs her, she pulls back and falls. He bends down to pull her up, she spits in his face, he grabs her scarf, twists it and with his free hand runs a blade across her exposed throat, nicking the scarf on the same line and angle as the cut. Drops the scarf, her head sets down.... and she bleeds out.

Does he scramble out the gate? Doesnt appear anyone saw anyone bolt out the gates at any time, so perhaps someone has pulled him off her and back into the yard when the body is discovered. In the ensuing confusion he might enter the club via the side door and leave via the front door....he might even be seen cleaning his knife soon thereafter in an alley. Who discovers the body? How much time is needed for the above scenario to play out if we assume that the PC saw Liz last at 12:35?

Then we might have a cut nearer to 12:45, and then we can understand why 3 club witnesses and Edward Spooner suggested by their times that they were alerted to the body around 12:40-12:45.

Its the reason Fanny never sees Liz, its the reason no-one is seen at 12:45 near the gates by Brown, and its the reason that Blackwell suggested her cut may have been as early as 12:46. If his estimate is accurate to within 5-10 minutes, it works with the above.

The only flies in that ointment are Louis, Morris, Lave and Israel...all it would seem with connections to the club and/or its members.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Garry Wroe]

Israel Schwartz's story may well have been what he saw inside the gates when leaving the club through the side door, which ends up with Liz on the ground and BSM "assisting" her.

His story, Mike, was that which he related to the press and police, a narrative that involved him approaching Dutfield's Yard from Commercial Road. With respect, we need to evaluate this crime on the basis of the evidence if we are ever to establish the true sequence of events.

[Garry Wroe]

The events and BS mans actions indicate a man who had spent some time money and effort (drinks in the pub,the flower, the multiple witnesses)to get Liz into a secluded spot for the pretense of sex and when she continued to refuse and a gave him a final refusal to go into dutfields yard he left her suddenly in frustration.

Stride was a prostitute, Abby. Why would Broad Shoulders have wasted time and money in plying Stride with drink when the only requirement if he wanted intimacy would have been to present her with fourpence? Either he was an idiot or she was the most incompetent streetwalker ever to have pounded a beat.

The insistance that her holding the cashous when the body was found as having to indicate a peacful normal alley way encounter between a prostitute and client is just plain wrong IMHO. Many a violently attacked and murdered person has been found still clutching something. She had probably been holding it prior to the attack when her and BS man were still in the "flirting" stage before he got angry.

The problem being, Abby, that Schwartz saw Stride manhandled and then thrown to the ground. Her natural instinct would have been to use her hands to break her fall. Personally, I doubt that the paper containing the cachous would have survived such an impact, especially since the road and pavement were wet as a consequence of the earlier rain. Thus it seems likely that the packet would have either burst open or become sodden and fallen apart.

Stride’s clothing was neither damaged nor disarranged when her body was found, a reality that suggests she entered the yard consensually. My bet is that Stride went there for the purpose of mollifying Broad Shoulders. If so, it seems likely that this was the point at which she took the cachous from her pocket and offered one to Broad Shoulders. When at some point thereafter Broad Shoulders grabbed the neckerchief and used it to pull Stride off balance, the ligature effect of this action would have caused her to grip the cachous tightly, producing a similar muscular contraction to that which leads to the clenched fists seen in many strangulation victims. Once on the ground the throat wound was inflicted quickly, thus ensuring that the cachous remained intact and in Stride’s hand even after death.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Thanks.

"I have always held this view-did not know Fish ever thought this."

Hmm, you must chat him up sometime.

Regarding the cachous. If they come out BEFORE BS departs, why does she hold on to them? Nervous habit, as I suggested?

"From here my sequence is:

BS man only gets up the street a bit before losing his temper and turns around and heads back to Liz. Enter Schwartz."

Alright. Is he really tipsy or not? If he is, whence the alcohol between bidding Liz "Good night" and meeting her again?

"He assaults Liz (perhaps even cutting her throat at this point), . . . "

Hmm, that would explain why her screams were not loud (heh-heh).

". . . scares off Schwartz, pulls her into the yard (perhaps cutting her throat at this point), leaves."

I think the biggest problem is STILL the long hold on the cachous.

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC

Regarding the cachous. If they come out BEFORE BS departs, why does she hold on to them? Nervous habit, as I suggested?

Sure-why not. Anyway its only been a few moments since he left her and returned according to my scenario.

Alright. Is he really tipsy or not? If he is, whence the alcohol between bidding Liz "Good night" and meeting her again?

Its irrelevant. maybe he is maybe hes not. If he is it could be the effects of when they were drinking earlier in the pub that B&G saw them.

Hmm, that would explain why her screams were not loud (heh-heh).

Absolutely. And if he does not cut her throat then but when he drags her into the yard then the not loud screams could be explained by her just wanting this pissed off punter leaving her alone and not thinking she needed to scream bloddy murder at the top of her lungs because she is being attacked by JtR.

I think the biggest problem is STILL the long hold on the cachous.

Nah. If she is talking flirting and kissing this man then it would be natural for her to be holding them.