A Case of Misattribution?

[lynn cates]

Por que?

Hello Tom. Thanks.

"Do you know where Liz was at 11:30pm?"

Not at all. Nor can I find a coherent reason for her to be at the club. (Well, other than a meeting.)

"Not back door, nor side door. She was standing in the gateway speaking to strange men as they walked by (According to Schwartz). And Charles Le Grand aka Pipeman killed her."

When did she get there? To whom did she speak? Why?

And if it's BS man, why would she take out the cachous right after the assault? Why go into the yard?

And, above all, why would LeGrand wish to kill her? (Eddowes? Now that's different.)

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Sunshine

Israel Sunshine of the Berner Street club lived in the Goulston Street building on which the graffiti was written.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Israel Sunshine looks like an example of an immigrant Jew anglicising his name. If it was a direct translation of the original he would have been Israel Sonnenschein or something similar. I suspect the possibility of Israel Schwartz as Israel Black has already been looked at in the later records? If not, I'll have a go.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Jacob

Hello Colin. You might also have a go at Jacob (= Israel) as a first name.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding Mortimer. Both she and Schwartz said it was very quiet on Berner Street at that time, and there's no reason to call either a liar. Leon Goldstein also appears not to have seen a soul as he walked along the street. Had Leon and Mortimer described more activity, then we'd have stronger reason to doubt Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott[/QUOTE]

On the above quote of yours Tom, you cant dismiss what Fanny didnt hear one minute then use her to corroborate your uncorroborated witness. Fanny heard no scuffle, no "Lipski" and no running boots either.

It appears by the evidence that the young couple, Fanny Mortimer, Spooner, nor Eagle or Lave at 12:40ish...(who also dont see each other)...see or hear nothing just outside the gates of the club at around 12:40, 12:45. No-one saw anyone run from Berner Street chased by someone else, they would have literally bumped into Brown and the young couple based on the times, and no-one else claims they saw Liz Stride after 12:35 until Louis claims he finds her at 1. Interesting that Brown and Spooner are at the Inquest, either one could have validated Schwartz's story. Fanny and Israel arent. Because of what she didnt see or hear, and because no-one matches up with what Israel said.

It appears that Maria has found what Im sure many have heard me suggest for years here, (just in case other proprietary claims are made), .. that Israel likely had a club connection. Bravo. Cant wait to read about what is suggested in your comments Maria.


Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

"Do you know where Liz was at 11:30pm?"

Not at all. Nor can I find a coherent reason for her to be at the club. (Well, other than a meeting.)

The pubs had closed, but not the club. If you follow Stride's movements that evening from 7pm on, we keep finding her inside or just outside a pub, which is where a woman would find custom. As for her whereabouts at 11:30pm, she was either finishing up with the Bricklayer's Arm man, or just hooking up with the man Marshall watched her with for 10 minutes.

"Not back door, nor side door. She was standing in the gateway speaking to strange men as they walked by (According to Schwartz). And Charles Le Grand aka Pipeman killed her."

When did she get there? To whom did she speak? Why?

She got there prior to 12:35, when she was spotted by White, she is known to have spoken to a young, well-dressed man with a paper package at that time, or as I suspect, possibly a clubman holding his stack of Arbeter Fraint. She is also suspected to have spoken with James Brown's man around 12:45 and BS Man around the same time. I suspect the Brown sighting occurred first. Why? She was making money.

And if it's BS man, why would she take out the cachous right after the assault? Why go into the yard?

And, above all, why would LeGrand wish to kill her? (Eddowes? Now that's different.)

Why take out the cachous? Because she had to. Why go into the yard? Probably the same reason. And why did Le Grand kill her? I have no idea. Maybe he killed them all. Or maybe just her. He had just signed on with the Vigilance Committee days before, then two women die, then he shows up in Berner Street buying false testimony, gets in the mix with the Batty Street lodger nonsense, then his new boss gets a kidney in the mail. Lotta activity to happen around a known sociopath, arguably the only sociopath woman-hater with access to police beat movements and a free pass to walk the east end streets wearing silent boots and carrying weapons. But hey, this is Ripperology, and everything's just a coincidence, right?

Anyway, I just realized (again!) this is a Kozminski thread, and we're way off topic. Where's Garry Wroe?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Israel Sunshine looks like an example of an immigrant Jew anglicising his name. If it was a direct translation of the original he would have been Israel Sonnenschein or something similar. I suspect the possibility of Israel Schwartz as Israel Black has already been looked at in the later records? If not, I'll have a go.

I think that's a brilliant idea.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

It appears that Maria has found what Im sure many have heard me suggest for years here, (just in case other proprietary claims are made), .. that Israel likely had a club connection. Bravo. Cant wait to read about what is suggested in your comments Maria.

Mike I think it is only a logical conclusion that Schwartz may have been a member of the club, given the circumstances, the problem is more proving it than figuring it out.

Hi Colin

We have Israel Schwartz in the census as Israel Schwartz right up to 1911


I thought I would post Israel Schwartz through the census from 1891 - 1901.

In 1891 at 22 Great Samuel Street lived

Israel Schwartz Head 27 Tailor's Presser Born in Poland.
Eva Schwartz Wife 27 Born in Poland
Dinah E Schwartz Dau 6 Scholar Born in Poland.
Louis Schawrtz son 6mt Born in St George's East London


In 1901 at 21 Jubilee Street, Stepney lived

Israel Schwartz Head 36 Provisions dealer o/a Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Wife 36 Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Dau 16 Dress maker Born in Russia
Louis Schwartz Son 12 Scholar St George's East London
Daniel Schwartz Son 6 Scholar St George's East London
Edward Schwartz Son 3 St George's east London
Abraham Schwartz Son 1 St George's East London

In 1911 at 26 Prince's Square, Cable Street St George's East

Israel Schwartz Head 48 Tailor Worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Eva Schwartz Wife 48 Born in Poland and Jewish
Etta Schwartz dau 25 Dressmaker worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Lionel Schwartz son 21 Fur cutter worker Born in Middlesex St George East
Daniel Schwartz son 17 Watchmaker worker Born in Middlesex St GeorgeEast
Judah Schwartz son 13 Born in Middlesex St George East
Abie Schwartz son 11 Born in Middlesex St George East
Monte Schwartz 9 Born in Middlesex St George in East

The couple have been married for 28 years with a total of 11 children 6 still living and 5 who have died. They are all living in a 4 roomed house (you count the Kitchen as a room but not bathroom, scullery, landing, lobby or closet)

I don't think he had any reason to change his name but feel free to prove me wrong

Tracy

[lynn cates]

this, that, other

Hello Tom. Thanks. Not sure we are off topic--perhaps.

"The pubs had closed, but not the club."

Concedo.

"If you follow Stride's movements that evening from 7pm on, we keep finding her inside or just outside a pub, which is where a woman would find custom. As for her whereabouts at 11:30pm, she was either finishing up with the Bricklayer's Arm man, or just hooking up with the man Marshall watched her with for 10 minutes."

Difficult to follow given the disparity in descriptions.

"She got there prior to 12:35, when she was spotted by White, she is known to have spoken to a young, well-dressed man with a paper package at that time, or as I suspect, possibly a clubman holding his stack of Arbeter Fraint."

No disagreement here.

"She is also suspected to have spoken with James Brown's man around 12:45 and BS Man around the same time."

Indeed. And I find that "troubling."

"I suspect the Brown sighting occurred first."

To be honest, I think the Brown sighting a mistake (different couple) and the Schwartz "sighting" a fairy tale--albeit, a useful one.

"Why? She was making money."

Very well, but en donde esta? She had no money on her when found.

"Why take out the cachous? Because she had to."

Had to?

"Why go into the yard? Probably the same reason."

After an assault?

"And why did Le Grand kill her? I have no idea."

Nor yet I.

"Maybe he killed them all."

Doubt it.

"Or maybe just her."

Or maybe just Kate.

"He had just signed on with the Vigilance Committee days before, then two women die, then he shows up in Berner Street buying false testimony, gets in the mix with the Batty Street lodger nonsense, then his new boss gets a kidney in the mail."

Still think he is trying to get to the bottom of Liz's case.

"Lotta activity to happen around a known sociopath, arguably the only sociopath woman-hater with access to police beat movements and a free pass to walk the east end streets wearing silent boots and carrying weapons."

Good points for a killing. But a motive is needed. Hire? Looks promising.

"But hey, this is Ripperology, and everything's just a coincidence, right?"

All depends whose thesis is in the dock. (heh-heh)

"Anyway, I just realized (again!) this is a Kozminski thread, and we're way off topic."

No difficulty there. just let Kosminski be the 12.35 club lad and we are off the hook--perhaps even virtuous.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

identity

Hello TJ. Those look good, but of course contain some discrepancies.

Can we be certain that all these are the same or that any one is identical to the theatrical Hungarian chap?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

No, there's not, but she's digging to find something. {...} I've looked at this probably closer than anyone, and while I think it probable that Schwartz was no stranger to the Berner Street club, I have found nothing to convince me that he was lying, or covering for the members of the club. And believe me when I say I looked hard to find something. But it's just not there.

Only you didn't look in Paris, Tom. :-p

So there actually IS evidence?, evidence exists which connects Schwartz with this Club?

Hungarian non English speaking anarchist named Schwartz connected with William Wess in 1902-1905, followed by the French secret police in Whitechapel. Working on trying to identify him further, but this guy AND the Arbeter Fraint both went out of their way to keep secrecy. Haven't even started looking up in Jewish databases yet. (Am at the French Alps with intermittent internet connection.)

Quote Tom Wescott: Nothing more than what I previously pointed out to you on another thread - Schwartz lived on Berner Street up until the day of the murder. He was a young, Jewish immigrant who didn't speak English. The Berner Street club was a big club on a small street catering to young, Jewish immigrants. I personally think common sense dictates the two must have enjoyed some association, but common sense and evidence are not one and the same. Schwartz may, in fact, have been heading to the club (potentially his previous temporary residence) when his way was blocked by the 'fighting couple' and he crossed the street.
Agree with all of this, and let me state that it was Tom and Lynn whose ideas inspired me to search further.

The Samuel Street Schwartz was Polish, very possibly not our Schwartz. There are some other good candidates in the census of 1891, among else a Nathan Schwartz with a SON named Israel – the French secret police once referred to their anarchist person of interest as “N. Schwartz“, another time as “A. Schwartz“. Roy Cordyroy has located an interesting connection to a “A. Schwartz“.

Lynn, pertaing to Le Grand killing Stride, I need to finish researching something, then email you about some ideas for research. I've just emailed you about something else.

[Michael W Richards]

Only you didn't look in Paris, Tom. :-p

Hi Maria,

Since Tom suggests that Israel was telling the truth, and Lynn, myself and others have long been suggesting that he was lying, odd that you would mention Tom as an inspiration to look deeper at him. Of course the thread is about misattribution.

Paris is a pivotal city in these cases and that Fall, for anarchists, revolutionaries and Senior Police from London.

As to the cashous, aside from any speculation that she held them because she was asked to empty her pockets, there is really only one viable answer without any proof of the aforementioned. She intended to freshen her mouth and breath. Her physical demeanor was of a woman lain gently down, her clothing was untouched and her skirt pockets were where pockets that are not turned out would be. Why she would empty her pockets of cashous but leave other items in them is another issue.

Find another case of a prostitute that wore flowers and had sweet breath in order to catch warehouseman and dockers, then you have grounds for that assumption. Then find one that was sober while working.

Liz Stride had stated she had been at work among the Jews, her landlady and her ex confirmed she had said that. So there she is, ankle length skirt that she wanted to brush for lint before leaving her lodgings, a maidenfern arrangement on her breast, and breath sweeteners. Outside a Jewish mens club, the night before the high holidays kicked in. Sober.

Hasnt anyone considered that her work among the Jews might have been with club members or even the club itself?

Best regards,

Mike R

[GregBaron]

I Spy...

Thanks for your replies Lynn...

I have checked and double checked. The main problem is the time. If she were a police spy, it made no sense to be there at 12.30--the meeting was breaking up around 11.30.

I thought you had a fully developed hypothesis about the Stride affair Lynn. I thought you believed she was spying for Prussian agents who had recently located to London
and their goal was to stop the threat of International Socialist Jewry! Did I dream this up or is research ongoing or
were you just messing with my head? ...............Sorry for the American colloquialism.

Don't know. Looks like she is being met at the back door of the club. Ideas?

Well, if she was a double agent perhaps the Prussians whacked her for disloyalty otherwise the Jews offed her for selling information to the Prussians. Hmmm, why does this feel more and more like a John Le Carre, Robert Ludlum or Frederick Forsyth novel..........!


Greg

[Tom_Wescott]

Teej quoted the following excerpt: It appears that Maria has found what Im sure many have heard me suggest for years here, (just in case other proprietary claims are made), .. that Israel likely had a club connection. Bravo. Cant wait to read about what is suggested in your comments Maria.

Let me make it very plain that Michael Richards is the originator of exactly zero ideas. I believe it's well known that the first to advance the idea that Schwartz might have been associated with the club was myself, based on my research and reading of the materials, such as the Star report. I also advanced the idea that he might have been lying to protect the club, but only as a possibility, and one that anybody has yet to find evidence for. Richards showed up much later praising these ideas and then making a mockery of them with his own ridiculous speculation.

Since Tom suggests that Israel was telling the truth, and Lynn, myself and others have long been suggesting that he was lying, odd that you would mention Tom as an inspiration to look deeper at him. Of course the thread is about misattribution.

This is because Maria lives in the real world and not the fantasy world inside your head where you are me. I have tried my damnedest to ignore you and your nonsense in the name of peace, because we all know it won't be terribly long until you're banned once again. But I have very, very low tolerance for theft and plaigurism, and you're only embarrassing yourself by claiming ANY idea you've ever promoted was original, so you should quit while I'm ahead.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. Brown most likely saw Stride with a man. There was no 'young couple' on the street at that time. That's one of the many myths surrounding the Stride case. As for the Bricklayer's Arm man and Marshall's man being different, this is made clear by their very different head wear. And given that Best, Gardner (and their unnamed third party), followed by Marshall, got the best and longest views of Stride and her companion(s), I would say they're rather accurate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Maria. OK. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC