A Case of Misattribution?

[Roy Corduroy]

Garry, you are absolutely right that Elizabeth Stride could have known her killer. And yes, that man could have been Jack the Ripper.

A serial killer doesn't have to be complete stranger to his victims.

Roy

[Garry Wroe]

Agreed, Roy. I just don't happen to believe that there is any justification for the assumption that Jack the Ripper killed Liz Stride. Still, maybe someone will present some evidence to support the notion of the double event.

[lynn cates]

hold on

Hello Abby. Thanks. I was in jest about the cut throat and screams.

Out of curiosity, if you had a female companion, and you two were kanoodling, would you find it a bit odd for her to be holding, say, car keys all the while?

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Agreed, Roy. I just don't happen to believe that there is any justification for the assumption that Jack the Ripper killed Liz Stride. Still, maybe someone will present some evidence to support the notion of the double event.

And that's fine, Garry. If you feel there's no evidence, or no one has ever expounded upon the double event scenario persuasively, well, I'd be a total idiot to try now, wouldn't I? (note to self)

Roy

[Fleetwood Mac]

Sorry, FM, but there was nothing mutually exclusive regarding these two conditions. Investigators clearly regarded Schwartz as a truthful and important witness whilst at the same time concluding that Stride was a Ripper victim.

Fair enough Garry.

I find it hard to believe that of all these statements of: "the only man"...they all neglected to mention that the man in question witnessed a struggle.

Assuming the emphasis is on proving the point, then such a struggle 15 minutes before the body was found could only possible press that point.

On balance, and I've changed my mind a couple of times, I can only see that Schwartz was not the "only man", and if he wasn't that man then clearly they arrived at the conclusion that he was talking cack.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Garry, you are absolutely right that Elizabeth Stride could have known her killer. And yes, that man could have been Jack the Ripper.

A serial killer doesn't have to be complete stranger to his victims.

Roy

No, but no signs of a struggle and cachous in hand - does it look like a heat of the moment murder?

I'd expect there to be a right old carry on.

Seems to me the killer managed to get her where he wanted before quickly despatching of her life. Sounds like Jack.

[Abby Normal]

Stride was a prostitute, Abby. Why would Broad Shoulders have wasted time and money in plying Stride with drink when the only requirement if he wanted intimacy would have been to present her with fourpence? Either he was an idiot or she was the most incompetent streetwalker ever to have pounded a beat.


The problem being, Abby, that Schwartz saw Stride manhandled and then thrown to the ground. Her natural instinct would have been to use her hands to break her fall. Personally, I doubt that the paper containing the cachous would have survived such an impact, especially since the road and pavement were wet as a consequence of the earlier rain. Thus it seems likely that the packet would have either burst open or become sodden and fallen apart.

Stride’s clothing was neither damaged nor disarranged when her body was found, a reality that suggests she entered the yard consensually. My bet is that Stride went there for the purpose of mollifying Broad Shoulders. If so, it seems likely that this was the point at which she took the cachous from her pocket and offered one to Broad Shoulders. When at some point thereafter Broad Shoulders grabbed the neckerchief and used it to pull Stride off balance, the ligature effect of this action would have caused her to grip the cachous tightly, producing a similar muscular contraction to that which leads to the clenched fists seen in many strangulation victims. Once on the ground the throat wound was inflicted quickly, thus ensuring that the cachous remained intact and in Stride’s hand even after death.

Hi Garry

Stride was a prostitute, Abby. Why would Broad Shoulders have wasted time and money in plying Stride with drink when the only requirement if he wanted intimacy would have been to present her with fourpence? Either he was an idiot or she was the most incompetent streetwalker ever to have pounded a beat.[/

Yes she was. But she was also a human being. Just because she was a prostitute does not mean that every time she went out she was prostituting herself. Perhaps she was looking for a new boyfriend. Actually, Her actions that night as described by the various witnesses seem to describe a woman who was not solicitating.

The problem being, Abby, that Schwartz saw Stride manhandled and then thrown to the ground. Her natural instinct would have been to use her hands to break her fall. Personally, I doubt that the paper containing the cachous would have survived such an impact, especially since the road and pavement were wet as a consequence of the earlier rain. Thus it seems likely that the packet would have either burst open or become sodden and fallen apart.

To me if the cachous was something that Stride valued then I would think that holding on to them tighter so they dont get damaged while being roughed up would be a natural reaction. These poor women probably put great value on items such as this. Its easy to hold onto a small item when falling to the ground-especially if its only in one hand.

Stride’s clothing was neither damaged nor disarranged when her body was found, a reality that suggests she entered the yard consensually. My bet is that Stride went there for the purpose of mollifying Broad Shoulders. If so, it seems likely that this was the point at which she took the cachous from her pocket and offered one to Broad Shoulders. When at some point thereafter Broad Shoulders grabbed the neckerchief and used it to pull Stride off balance, the ligature effect of this action would have caused her to grip the cachous tightly, producing a similar muscular contraction to that which leads to the clenched fists seen in many strangulation victims. Once on the ground the throat wound was inflicted quickly, thus ensuring that the cachous remained intact and in Stride’s hand even after death.

[/QUOTE]

I doubt someone who had just been attacked by someone would then immediatey go willingly into a secluded area with them.

[Michael W Richards]

His story, Mike, was that which he related to the press and police, a narrative that involved him approaching Dutfield's Yard from Commercial Road. With respect, we need to evaluate this crime on the basis of the evidence if we are ever to establish the true sequence of events.

Hi Gary,

What I was trying to illustrate was that Israel's story, which took place as you suggest above, could have actually occurred within the passageway, with the same number of individuals and the Israel character leaving via the gates.

The story must answer why she was there, why she was in the passageway, and when... whether she entered it alone, why she had bruises on her chest, why she had her scarf twisted and nicked, why her feet are closest to the gates and street, why she had cashous in her hand, and at what time was she discovered, and by whom. Things like that.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

With respect, we need to evaluate this crime on the basis of the evidence if we are ever to establish the true sequence of events.

I have...and I did. You're welcome.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sleekviper]

Hello Tom,
Sorry for being late, head has been pounding last few days. Douglass dealt with Lincoln, Grant, and Hayes; he was dead by McKinley. Little tidbit; he spoke for Irish Home Rule and efforts of Charles Stewart Parnell and briefly revisited Ireland in 1886.

[lynn cates]

My Lord!

Hello Joe. Hope you are better now.

Spoke for Home Rule, eh? I daresay what Lord Salisbury's opinion of that was. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Lynn,

Out of curiosity, what was the source of the melody?

Your post's title would indicate you already know, but for those keeping score at home it was a popular English drinking song of the time, "Anacreon in Heaven," composed by John Stafford Smith. Some consider that an embarrassment but then my undergrad university's official alma mater is to the tune of Deutschland Uber Alles."

Don.

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Don. Thanks. "You are a wise man, van Helsing."

Deutschland uber Alles? As in Karl Maria Von Weber? Lovely melody.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Deutschland uber Alles? As in Karl Maria Von Weber? Lovely melody.

I don't know, one can become overexposed to it. ;-)
The music is actually by Joseph Haydn. And post WWII the first strophe is cut, beginning with “Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit“.

[Lechmere]

To get back to the original premise for this thread - we cannot agree that the bs man was the ripper/killer. I think it is fair to say that the police in 1888 did not know whether he was the killer. Therefore the police would not have said that Schwartz was the only man to get a clear view of the ripper as they were by no means sure the bs man was the ripper. That is without even going into the area of whether Schwartz saw anything at all.