A Case of Misattribution?

[tji]

[QUOTE]

Hello TJ. Those look good, but of course contain some discrepancies.

Can we be certain that all these are the same or that any one is identical to the theatrical Hungarian chap?

Hi Lynn

I personally wouldn't like to bet my house on it but as with most everything in this case there is nothing iron clad. There are discrepancies, but the similarities are strong. The maiden name of the women change but the ages and birth places stay the same.
I think it is unlikely that Israel changed his name as he used the name Israel throughout the census's and children's' school records.

[[QUOTE]QUOTE=Bridewell;228593]Hi Tracy,

Thanks for posting the above which may have saved me some hours of fruitless search. Can you throw any light on the discrepancy in his wife's name which seems to change from Eva to Esther & back again over the 20 years? Just on spec, in case he'd moved on, I did try the US immigration records but Israel Schwartz was evidently a name popular with East European immigrants !


Hi Colin

No problem. :0)

I can't say for certain but maybe the fact that Dinah is Esther in 1901 could be she is using a middle name (she is recorded as Dinah E in 1891). And Etta maybe just a shortened version of Esther maybe?

The mother being named Esther in 1901 maybe just a clerical error, writing the name Esther twice as she is back to being Eva in the next census.

An old post of school records courtesy of ChrisP that may help co-corroborate the addresses a little.

[I have been trying to follow up on the research by Gavin and others, and here's a list of this Israel Schwartz's addresses so far:
8 December 1890 - 16 Brunswick Street - admission of daughter Esther to infants' section of Berner Street School.
3 March 1891 - 19 Brunswick Street - birth of son Louis
5 April-12 May 1891 - 22 Samuel Street - census and admission of daughter "Rose" to girls' section of Berner Street School.
12 November 1894-5 November 1895 - 13 Queen Street (off Old Montague Street) - admission of daughter Esther to Jews' Free School; birth of son Daniel.
31 August 1896-6 June 1898 - 143 Back Church Lane - admission of son Louis to the infants' section of Berner Street School; birth of son Judah (a.k.a. Edward).
31 March 1901 - 21 Jubilee Street - census.
29 May-4 July 1901 - 1 John Street, St Georges in the East - birth of son Abraham.[/I]

Tracy

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Maria,

You mentioned here I found something. Just to clarify, this is about the material including the above, which you posted in the Kaufman thread.

A translation of the third document posted by Rob Clack in his post #72, another report of the French secret police:

Paris, April 30, 1902 (from London).
A new locale for the Russian revolutionaries in London.

Due to the fact that Whitechapel Russian revolutionaries have been lacking space in their current settings, they just rented Liberty Hall at 9, Pelham Street, Brick Lane, E.C. for their conferences.
Gatherings will be taking place regularly on Fridays and Sundays in order to increase membership and to gather funding from English sympathizers to the agenda of the Russian refugees.

And you asked me if I knew anything about 'Liberty Hall.' The answer is, no, and I didn't find it either, as far as I know. The street directories, a listing of businesses, not the census, for the address 9 Pelham Street shows:

1882 - Abraham Rosenthal, Grocer
1888 - no business listing
1895 and 1899 - Angel Schwartz, Chandlers shop
1915 at 9 Pelham- Mrs. Rachel Bernstein, Wholesale furrier and at 11 Pelham - Samuel Angel Schwartz, grocer

I only know of 'Liberty Hall, 9 Pelham St, Brick Lane E' from the French police reports you located. But again, I appreciate you doing the research in Paris and and Rob's assistance and please keep us posted on any future finds you may produce.

Roy

And yes tji, the Israel Schwartz you showed, found by those researchers who do the heavy lifting, is surely the best fit for the man who came forward in the Stride case. But I thought we knew that already.

[Garry Wroe]

I personally wouldn't like to bet my house on it but as with most everything in this case there is nothing iron clad.

It's a pity that we lack a definitive link between the the two Schwartzes, Tracy, but the circumstantial case for them being one and the same is fairly compelling. And if, as seems overwhelmingly likely, Schwartz really was Anderson's witness, investigators would have needed to locate him for the purpose of the Seaside Home identification, which in itself is suggestive that he remained in or close to the East End.

[mariab]

Thank you so much Roy. I'll re-start working on this as soon as I have steady internet access and finished with an article on deadline, in a week or two.

For the record, I'm of the opinion that Anderson's witness was Lawende. (I know, unoriginal, but makes much more sense.)

[lynn cates]

Anarchists R Us

Hello Maria. Thanks.

"I might have an explanation for the date the Vassiliev story appeared, Lynn. Will contact you in a few days, when I'm done. About a Russian translator too."

Sounds good. But the main problem is that Vasiliev did not "become an Anarchist" until November.

"Don't wanna talk for someone else, but I'm under the impression Rob has referred to a Club member losing his temper and throwing her out (as in the BS episode), not killing her."

I thought that Rob had conjectured the club man had killed her in the melee?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

geography

Hello TJ. Thanks. I can agree with that.

The spouse's name change seems easy to account for. I think my biggest problem is the shifting geography for his homeland.

Cheers.
LC

[tji]

And yes tji, the Israel Schwartz you showed, found by those researchers who do the heavy lifting, is surely the best fit for the man who came forward in the Stride case. But I thought we knew that already.

[/QUOTE]


Hi Roy

I am not sure of your point here so not sure how to answer. some of us are aware of the info but some aren't, figured it would be nice to help them out.

It's a pity that we lack a definitive link between the the two Schwartzes, Tracy, but the circumstantial case for them being one and the same is fairly compelling. And if, as seems overwhelmingly likely, Schwartz really was Anderson's witness, investigators would have needed to locate him for the purpose of the Seaside Home identification, which in itself is suggestive that he remained in or close to the East End.

Hi Gary

Yeah I know and agree, a more concrete link would be definitely preferable but I think if you take the info of the school intake as well as the census as they both confirm the Samuel Street and Jubilee Street addresses for the family, then I think it is a good enough fit myself.

He definitely seemed to move addresses a lot!

Tracy

[Roy Corduroy]

I think my biggest problem is the shifting geography for his homeland.

The one shift was the Star alone referring to him as Hungarian. Gavin Bromley discussed the nationality issue in some depth in his article "Mrs. Kuer's Lodger," which can be read on Casebook.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Roy

... some of us are aware of the info but some aren't, figured it would be nice to help them out.

Absolutely, Tracy, its good of you to help new people, or those who may have missed it.

I was thinking more 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.'

Roy

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Tracy

I've no problem at all with the name discrepancies...they do seem to be within the realms of logic...it is the origin, the place of birth, that makes me back off just that little...

All the best

Dave

[tji]

[QUOTE]

Absolutely, Tracy, its good of you to help new people, or those who may have missed it.

No probs Roy - I understand now what you were referring.

[QUOTE]I was thinking more 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.'

Can we dunk them a little, won't solve the problem but will make me feel better


Tracy

[tji]

[QUOTE]

Hi Tracy

I've no problem at all with the name discrepancies...they do seem to be within the realms of logic...it is the origin, the place of birth, that makes me back off just that little...

Hi Dave

Haven't managed to find a lot but have found a piece that states in In Russian ruled Poland in 1892...... so maybe that was the reason behind the change of birth origin. Hopefully I will manage to find a bit more info.

Tracy

[lynn cates]

Hungarian

Hello Roy. Thanks. Being familiar with his good work, I must check that out.

If it turns out he was NOT Hungarian, life will be a good deal simpler.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

The Empire

Hello Roy. Thanks. Being familiar with his good work, I must check that out.

If it turns out he was NOT Hungarian, life will be a good deal simpler.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (again!), but I believe that Poland, or some of it anyway) formed part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Austria-Hungary

Hello Colin. If I recall properly, Poland dominated Russia, Russia dominated Poland and Poland may have even been a part of Austria-Hungary.

That last has been suggested before, making Schwartz NOT a native speaker of Hungarian. Of course, that would also make the newspaper story about his "Hungarian" a bit of a faux pas.

Cheers.
LC