A Case of Misattribution?

[lynn cates]

Okhrana

Hello Greg. Thanks. Perhaps you refer to Piotr Rachkovski and his Okhrana agentura set up in London, June, 1888? Although that is intriguing, Rachkovski's Vasiliev story is a bit off date wise. Just as Liz's time at the club is off by about an hour.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Liz sightings

Hello Tom. Perhaps, except for:

1. The empty ring of G & B's story (to say nothing of their failure to appear at inquest).

2. Marshall's lack of flower. (Yes, I know your thesis here.)

So my take on the "Liz sightings" that night (other than Smith's) is that they must be approached with extreme caution.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Another red herring...

Hello Greg. Thanks. Perhaps you refer to Piotr Rachkovski and his Okhrana agentura set up in London, June, 1888? Although that is intriguing, Rachkovski's Vasiliev story is a bit off date wise. Just as Liz's time at the club is off by about an hour.

Cheers.
LC

Yes Mr. Lynn, this is most certainly it. Good to know I'm not yet mad....Thanks.

Now does this indicate your research in this area has led to a dead-end street (no pun intended)? Is it back to ground zero in the Stride affair?

Mabye Pipeman/LeGrand did off her for refusing his pimping offer....?


Greg

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. Perhaps, except for:

1. The empty ring of G & B's story (to say nothing of their failure to appear at inquest).

2. Marshall's lack of flower. (Yes, I know your thesis here.)

So my take on the "Liz sightings" that night (other than Smith's) is that they must be approached with extreme caution.

Best and Gardner would not have been necessary at the inquest as so many sightings of Stride occurred afterward. Their story has the strong ring of truth, with them even describing Stride's mouth, etc, to the reporter BEFORE witnessing her at the mortuary. And the fact that all three of the men agreed with one another, at least one feeling he was absolutely certain, and another almost certain.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

An outsider might think you were dismissing all this evidence regarding Stride's movements because it's inconvenient. The truth is, Stride had a very distinguishable face (particularly her mouth) so the sightings of Best/Gardner, Marshall, Smith, Schwartz, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Brown, are pretty good evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

Mike I think it is only a logical conclusion that Schwartz may have been a member of the club, given the circumstances, the problem is more proving it than figuring it out.

Hi Colin

We have Israel Schwartz in the census as Israel Schwartz right up to 1911


I thought I would post Israel Schwartz through the census from 1891 - 1901.

In 1891 at 22 Great Samuel Street lived

Israel Schwartz Head 27 Tailor's Presser Born in Poland.
Eva Schwartz Wife 27 Born in Poland
Dinah E Schwartz Dau 6 Scholar Born in Poland.
Louis Schawrtz son 6mt Born in St George's East London


In 1901 at 21 Jubilee Street, Stepney lived

Israel Schwartz Head 36 Provisions dealer o/a Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Wife 36 Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Dau 16 Dress maker Born in Russia
Louis Schwartz Son 12 Scholar St George's East London
Daniel Schwartz Son 6 Scholar St George's East London
Edward Schwartz Son 3 St George's east London
Abraham Schwartz Son 1 St George's East London

In 1911 at 26 Prince's Square, Cable Street St George's East

Israel Schwartz Head 48 Tailor Worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Eva Schwartz Wife 48 Born in Poland and Jewish
Etta Schwartz dau 25 Dressmaker worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Lionel Schwartz son 21 Fur cutter worker Born in Middlesex St George East
Daniel Schwartz son 17 Watchmaker worker Born in Middlesex St GeorgeEast
Judah Schwartz son 13 Born in Middlesex St George East
Abie Schwartz son 11 Born in Middlesex St George East
Monte Schwartz 9 Born in Middlesex St George in East

The couple have been married for 28 years with a total of 11 children 6 still living and 5 who have died. They are all living in a 4 roomed house (you count the Kitchen as a room but not bathroom, scullery, landing, lobby or closet)

I don't think he had any reason to change his name but feel free to prove me wrong

Tracy

Hi Tracy,

Thanks for posting the above which may have saved me some hours of fruitless search. Can you throw any light on the discrepancy in his wife's name which seems to change from Eva to Esther & back again over the 20 years? Just on spec, in case he'd moved on, I did try the US immigration records but Israel Schwartz was evidently a name popular with East European immigrants !

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Rachkovski

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"Now does this indicate your research in this area has led to a dead-end street (no pun intended)?"

Oh, not that dire. He is just placed on the back burner. It is like when, a few years ago, I was a Druittist. MJD was supposed to have a safe place at his legal offices southwest of the kill zone. But I could never reconcile the Berner to Mitre to Goulston movements (oh, yes, I was a "Double Eventer" back then) that were made. Natural would have been Berner to Mitre back to the office--straight southwestern movement.

If PR had engineered the "Double Event," his Vasilliev story should have come out about 5-7 days afterward--not in November. Could he have expected an immediate pogrom? Sure. But that's not as certain.

But the records are all still there in Palo Alto. How's your Cyrillic? (heh-heh)

"Is it back to ground zero in the Stride affair?"

Nearly. Tom's other lad, Albert Bachert, interests me. Rob Clack's conjecture about a club member losing his temper and killing her is not too bad. Of course, the forensics of the yard requires an adjustment.

"Maybe Pipeman/LeGrand did off her for refusing his pimping offer....?"

Considered that. But why would he want East End turf? Pickings too slim.

Besides, LeGrand had a good bit on his plate working behind the scenes for the "Times" at the upcoming Parnell Commission. And I believe it is THERE that CLG is MOST interesting.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

odd behaviour

Hello Tom. Thanks. Their strongest point is the flower. That makes me lean their way. But Liz and the chap's behaviour seems incongruent with what is usually supposed to have taken place.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

witnesses

Hello (again) Tom. Thanks.

"An outsider might think you were dismissing all this evidence regarding Stride's movements because it's inconvenient."

Well, truth is NEVER inconvenient. It is what it is. And I have less interest in Liz than formerly (I know, blasphemy! heh-heh). But I have a problem reconciling these witness statements.

"The truth is, Stride had a very distinguishable face (particularly her mouth) so the sightings of Best/Gardner, Marshall, Smith, Schwartz, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Brown, are pretty good evidence."

I agree about her face. But I don't recall any but Marshall who picked her out by that feature.

And here's something to consider--when in the mood: how many similarities did Mrs. Watt's sister bear to Liz? I saw a list somewhere and, believe me, it is incredible.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

I have to say that Lynn is such a convincing player...and the flower has always loomed large with me...

With regard to Colin's research...hmm ok... continue...

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Just a short response to your comments Tom,...they were anticipated by mine. I returned for the discussions but Im still well aware of your penchant for claims of ownership. Knowledge is power Tom. I know who said what when, its all been recorded here, people can judge for themselves if they wish to. Im not trying desperately to impress anyone.

Anyhow,.....the volatility potential for that night was looked at by AP Wolf sometime ago and it was clear in his posts that the club was the object of some ire, either by local gentiles up in arms since the Jewish spin put on Annie's murder, or other parties wishing them some form of harm. That would include the local constabulary to some extent. These were the types of men that clashed with the Police the previous November in Trafalgar Square, and with the police in their own yard early in 1889. Key witnesses from the night of the Stride murder are arrested at that fracas.

A scheduled speaker was cancelled that night because of concerns over security.

That establishes that there were factions that were not thrilled about the activities of the club or some of its speakers before that night, and they might pose a threat, and that the club was aware of that.

A murder believed to be committed by members would have closed the club, miraculously however, someone we now hear is or was connected to Wolf Wess saw a gentile accost the victim off the property just before her murder.

Its a timely and well constructed play, too bad the audience was just one individual, Israel. No-one else saw or heard anything from in front of the gates...Spooner and his date, the young couple, James Brown, Fanny Mortimer, until Leon Goldstein waltzes by around 12:56am.

Whats missing is who actually drew the knife across her throat and how or if this case relates to the Mitre Square case and the Grafitto.

Best regards all,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

Just a short response to your comments Tom,...they were anticipated by mine. I returned for the discussions but Im still well aware of your penchant for claims of ownership. Knowledge is power Tom. I know who said what when, its all been recorded here, people can judge for themselves if they wish to. Im not trying desperately to impress anyone.

LOL. I have a penchant for claims of ownership, do I? I guess that makes two of us. I'm well aware that my ideas are so good, everyone wishes they had them first. But most have the sense not to make such claims. I was just reading some of my posts on this topic from 2007 earlier today. Of course, your posts from 2009 preempt mine...in your head. You should ask the only poster on here you trust...Lynn Cates...perhaps he'll set you straight and spare you any further embarrassment. On second thought, just keep on as you are so we can get your inevitable ban over and done with it and get back to some EDUCATED discussion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

LOL. I have a penchant for claims of ownership, do I? I guess that makes two of us. I'm well aware that my ideas are so good, everyone wishes they had them first. But most have the sense not to make such claims. I was just reading some of my posts on this topic from 2007 earlier today. Of course, your posts from 2009 preempt mine...in your head. You should ask the only poster on here you trust...Lynn Cates...perhaps he'll set you straight and spare you any further embarrassment. On second thought, just keep on as you are so we can get your inevitable ban over and done with it and get back to some EDUCATED discussion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I wish you would be just be accurate and allow me to avoid a reply, but, I was on Casebook starting in 2005 and as I recall, one of very few that denounced the Berner Street killing as a Ripper job. Im sure you are aware that the older Casebook discussions are either deleted or archived at some point, but they are available for purchase. Ive found a few of mine as perrymason as far back as 2008 here. Perhaps you will remember a thread I started called The Double Event/Singular Occurrences, that was in 2005-2006 time frame. I think Ben, or Glenn, or Sam Flynn, or Monty as I remember might recall it. My questioning of Israel and the evidence of this murder has been consistent throughout.

You have made it clear you believe this case to be a Ripper murder, you have a pet suspect for it and by association, all 5, and you support the Canonical assignations.

I havent and dont, and I havent and dont, and I havent and dont. Im just here to get and give ideas to see if some more rational explanation can be found so that the pet suspect theories give way to actual crime solving.

Now its been made clear again. You must wait a few years before denying this exchange took place, its kinda like the eating/swimming rule.

Lets just move along shall we?

Mike R

[Scott Nelson]

... I was on Casebook starting in 2005 and as I recall, one of very few that denounced the Berner Street killing as a Ripper job. Im sure you are aware that the older Casebook discussions are either deleted or archived at some point, but they are available for purchase. Ive found a few of mine as perrymason as far back as 2008 here. Perhaps you will remember a thread I started called The Double Event/Singular Occurrences, that was in 2005-2006 time frame.

Nope, don't recall them. You should have posted using your real name. Nobody could take "perrymason" seriously. (just kidding)

[mariab]

If PR had engineered the "Double Event," his Vasilliev story should have come out about 5-7 days afterward--not in November.
But the records are all still there in Palo Alto. How's your Cyrillic? (heh-heh)

I might have an explanation for the date the Vassiliev story appeared, Lynn. Will contact you in a few days, when I'm done. About a Russian translator too.

Rob Clack's conjecture about a club member losing his temper and killing her is not too bad.

Don't wanna talk for someone else, but I'm under the impression Rob has referred to a Club member losing his temper and throwing her out (as in the BS episode), not killing her.

Nope, don't recall them. You should have posted using your real name. Nobody could take "perrymason" seriously. (just kidding)

If it were just the name! :-)