A Case of Misattribution?

[lynn cates]

witnesses

Hello (again) Tom. Thanks.

"An outsider might think you were dismissing all this evidence regarding Stride's movements because it's inconvenient."

Well, truth is NEVER inconvenient. It is what it is. And I have less interest in Liz than formerly (I know, blasphemy! heh-heh). But I have a problem reconciling these witness statements.

"The truth is, Stride had a very distinguishable face (particularly her mouth) so the sightings of Best/Gardner, Marshall, Smith, Schwartz, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Brown, are pretty good evidence."

I agree about her face. But I don't recall any but Marshall who picked her out by that feature.

And here's something to consider--when in the mood: how many similarities did Mrs. Watt's sister bear to Liz? I saw a list somewhere and, believe me, it is incredible.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

odd behaviour

Hello Tom. Thanks. Their strongest point is the flower. That makes me lean their way. But Liz and the chap's behaviour seems incongruent with what is usually supposed to have taken place.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Rachkovski

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"Now does this indicate your research in this area has led to a dead-end street (no pun intended)?"

Oh, not that dire. He is just placed on the back burner. It is like when, a few years ago, I was a Druittist. MJD was supposed to have a safe place at his legal offices southwest of the kill zone. But I could never reconcile the Berner to Mitre to Goulston movements (oh, yes, I was a "Double Eventer" back then) that were made. Natural would have been Berner to Mitre back to the office--straight southwestern movement.

If PR had engineered the "Double Event," his Vasilliev story should have come out about 5-7 days afterward--not in November. Could he have expected an immediate pogrom? Sure. But that's not as certain.

But the records are all still there in Palo Alto. How's your Cyrillic? (heh-heh)

"Is it back to ground zero in the Stride affair?"

Nearly. Tom's other lad, Albert Bachert, interests me. Rob Clack's conjecture about a club member losing his temper and killing her is not too bad. Of course, the forensics of the yard requires an adjustment.

"Maybe Pipeman/LeGrand did off her for refusing his pimping offer....?"

Considered that. But why would he want East End turf? Pickings too slim.

Besides, LeGrand had a good bit on his plate working behind the scenes for the "Times" at the upcoming Parnell Commission. And I believe it is THERE that CLG is MOST interesting.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Mike I think it is only a logical conclusion that Schwartz may have been a member of the club, given the circumstances, the problem is more proving it than figuring it out.

Hi Colin

We have Israel Schwartz in the census as Israel Schwartz right up to 1911


I thought I would post Israel Schwartz through the census from 1891 - 1901.

In 1891 at 22 Great Samuel Street lived

Israel Schwartz Head 27 Tailor's Presser Born in Poland.
Eva Schwartz Wife 27 Born in Poland
Dinah E Schwartz Dau 6 Scholar Born in Poland.
Louis Schawrtz son 6mt Born in St George's East London


In 1901 at 21 Jubilee Street, Stepney lived

Israel Schwartz Head 36 Provisions dealer o/a Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Wife 36 Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Dau 16 Dress maker Born in Russia
Louis Schwartz Son 12 Scholar St George's East London
Daniel Schwartz Son 6 Scholar St George's East London
Edward Schwartz Son 3 St George's east London
Abraham Schwartz Son 1 St George's East London

In 1911 at 26 Prince's Square, Cable Street St George's East

Israel Schwartz Head 48 Tailor Worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Eva Schwartz Wife 48 Born in Poland and Jewish
Etta Schwartz dau 25 Dressmaker worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Lionel Schwartz son 21 Fur cutter worker Born in Middlesex St George East
Daniel Schwartz son 17 Watchmaker worker Born in Middlesex St GeorgeEast
Judah Schwartz son 13 Born in Middlesex St George East
Abie Schwartz son 11 Born in Middlesex St George East
Monte Schwartz 9 Born in Middlesex St George in East

The couple have been married for 28 years with a total of 11 children 6 still living and 5 who have died. They are all living in a 4 roomed house (you count the Kitchen as a room but not bathroom, scullery, landing, lobby or closet)

I don't think he had any reason to change his name but feel free to prove me wrong

Tracy

Hi Tracy,

Thanks for posting the above which may have saved me some hours of fruitless search. Can you throw any light on the discrepancy in his wife's name which seems to change from Eva to Esther & back again over the 20 years? Just on spec, in case he'd moved on, I did try the US immigration records but Israel Schwartz was evidently a name popular with East European immigrants !

Regards, Bridewell.

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

An outsider might think you were dismissing all this evidence regarding Stride's movements because it's inconvenient. The truth is, Stride had a very distinguishable face (particularly her mouth) so the sightings of Best/Gardner, Marshall, Smith, Schwartz, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Brown, are pretty good evidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom. Perhaps, except for:

1. The empty ring of G & B's story (to say nothing of their failure to appear at inquest).

2. Marshall's lack of flower. (Yes, I know your thesis here.)

So my take on the "Liz sightings" that night (other than Smith's) is that they must be approached with extreme caution.

Best and Gardner would not have been necessary at the inquest as so many sightings of Stride occurred afterward. Their story has the strong ring of truth, with them even describing Stride's mouth, etc, to the reporter BEFORE witnessing her at the mortuary. And the fact that all three of the men agreed with one another, at least one feeling he was absolutely certain, and another almost certain.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GregBaron]

Another red herring...

Hello Greg. Thanks. Perhaps you refer to Piotr Rachkovski and his Okhrana agentura set up in London, June, 1888? Although that is intriguing, Rachkovski's Vasiliev story is a bit off date wise. Just as Liz's time at the club is off by about an hour.

Cheers.
LC

Yes Mr. Lynn, this is most certainly it. Good to know I'm not yet mad....Thanks.

Now does this indicate your research in this area has led to a dead-end street (no pun intended)? Is it back to ground zero in the Stride affair?

Mabye Pipeman/LeGrand did off her for refusing his pimping offer....?


Greg

[lynn cates]

Liz sightings

Hello Tom. Perhaps, except for:

1. The empty ring of G & B's story (to say nothing of their failure to appear at inquest).

2. Marshall's lack of flower. (Yes, I know your thesis here.)

So my take on the "Liz sightings" that night (other than Smith's) is that they must be approached with extreme caution.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Okhrana

Hello Greg. Thanks. Perhaps you refer to Piotr Rachkovski and his Okhrana agentura set up in London, June, 1888? Although that is intriguing, Rachkovski's Vasiliev story is a bit off date wise. Just as Liz's time at the club is off by about an hour.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Maria. OK. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. Brown most likely saw Stride with a man. There was no 'young couple' on the street at that time. That's one of the many myths surrounding the Stride case. As for the Bricklayer's Arm man and Marshall's man being different, this is made clear by their very different head wear. And given that Best, Gardner (and their unnamed third party), followed by Marshall, got the best and longest views of Stride and her companion(s), I would say they're rather accurate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Teej quoted the following excerpt: It appears that Maria has found what Im sure many have heard me suggest for years here, (just in case other proprietary claims are made), .. that Israel likely had a club connection. Bravo. Cant wait to read about what is suggested in your comments Maria.

Let me make it very plain that Michael Richards is the originator of exactly zero ideas. I believe it's well known that the first to advance the idea that Schwartz might have been associated with the club was myself, based on my research and reading of the materials, such as the Star report. I also advanced the idea that he might have been lying to protect the club, but only as a possibility, and one that anybody has yet to find evidence for. Richards showed up much later praising these ideas and then making a mockery of them with his own ridiculous speculation.

Since Tom suggests that Israel was telling the truth, and Lynn, myself and others have long been suggesting that he was lying, odd that you would mention Tom as an inspiration to look deeper at him. Of course the thread is about misattribution.

This is because Maria lives in the real world and not the fantasy world inside your head where you are me. I have tried my damnedest to ignore you and your nonsense in the name of peace, because we all know it won't be terribly long until you're banned once again. But I have very, very low tolerance for theft and plaigurism, and you're only embarrassing yourself by claiming ANY idea you've ever promoted was original, so you should quit while I'm ahead.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GregBaron]

I Spy...

Thanks for your replies Lynn...

I have checked and double checked. The main problem is the time. If she were a police spy, it made no sense to be there at 12.30--the meeting was breaking up around 11.30.

I thought you had a fully developed hypothesis about the Stride affair Lynn. I thought you believed she was spying for Prussian agents who had recently located to London
and their goal was to stop the threat of International Socialist Jewry! Did I dream this up or is research ongoing or
were you just messing with my head? ...............Sorry for the American colloquialism.

Don't know. Looks like she is being met at the back door of the club. Ideas?

Well, if she was a double agent perhaps the Prussians whacked her for disloyalty otherwise the Jews offed her for selling information to the Prussians. Hmmm, why does this feel more and more like a John Le Carre, Robert Ludlum or Frederick Forsyth novel..........!


Greg

[Michael W Richards]

Only you didn't look in Paris, Tom. :-p

Hi Maria,

Since Tom suggests that Israel was telling the truth, and Lynn, myself and others have long been suggesting that he was lying, odd that you would mention Tom as an inspiration to look deeper at him. Of course the thread is about misattribution.

Paris is a pivotal city in these cases and that Fall, for anarchists, revolutionaries and Senior Police from London.

As to the cashous, aside from any speculation that she held them because she was asked to empty her pockets, there is really only one viable answer without any proof of the aforementioned. She intended to freshen her mouth and breath. Her physical demeanor was of a woman lain gently down, her clothing was untouched and her skirt pockets were where pockets that are not turned out would be. Why she would empty her pockets of cashous but leave other items in them is another issue.

Find another case of a prostitute that wore flowers and had sweet breath in order to catch warehouseman and dockers, then you have grounds for that assumption. Then find one that was sober while working.

Liz Stride had stated she had been at work among the Jews, her landlady and her ex confirmed she had said that. So there she is, ankle length skirt that she wanted to brush for lint before leaving her lodgings, a maidenfern arrangement on her breast, and breath sweeteners. Outside a Jewish mens club, the night before the high holidays kicked in. Sober.

Hasnt anyone considered that her work among the Jews might have been with club members or even the club itself?

Best regards,

Mike R

[mariab]

No, there's not, but she's digging to find something. {...} I've looked at this probably closer than anyone, and while I think it probable that Schwartz was no stranger to the Berner Street club, I have found nothing to convince me that he was lying, or covering for the members of the club. And believe me when I say I looked hard to find something. But it's just not there.

Only you didn't look in Paris, Tom. :-p

So there actually IS evidence?, evidence exists which connects Schwartz with this Club?

Hungarian non English speaking anarchist named Schwartz connected with William Wess in 1902-1905, followed by the French secret police in Whitechapel. Working on trying to identify him further, but this guy AND the Arbeter Fraint both went out of their way to keep secrecy. Haven't even started looking up in Jewish databases yet. (Am at the French Alps with intermittent internet connection.)

Quote Tom Wescott: Nothing more than what I previously pointed out to you on another thread - Schwartz lived on Berner Street up until the day of the murder. He was a young, Jewish immigrant who didn't speak English. The Berner Street club was a big club on a small street catering to young, Jewish immigrants. I personally think common sense dictates the two must have enjoyed some association, but common sense and evidence are not one and the same. Schwartz may, in fact, have been heading to the club (potentially his previous temporary residence) when his way was blocked by the 'fighting couple' and he crossed the street.
Agree with all of this, and let me state that it was Tom and Lynn whose ideas inspired me to search further.

The Samuel Street Schwartz was Polish, very possibly not our Schwartz. There are some other good candidates in the census of 1891, among else a Nathan Schwartz with a SON named Israel – the French secret police once referred to their anarchist person of interest as “N. Schwartz“, another time as “A. Schwartz“. Roy Cordyroy has located an interesting connection to a “A. Schwartz“.

Lynn, pertaing to Le Grand killing Stride, I need to finish researching something, then email you about some ideas for research. I've just emailed you about something else.