A Case of Misattribution?

[Tom_Wescott]

Israel Sunshine of the Berner Street club lived in the Goulston Street building on which the graffiti was written. Across the street were the Jewish baths, also associated with the Berner Street club, and in at least one of their well-known political marches, they would congregate in Berner Street outside the baths and march the streets to Mitre Square, near the great synagogue.

However, none of this directly relates to the Koz, though I've long suspected he was a socialist/anarchist, and that this was known to Sir Robert Anderson.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

That said, I do have an interesting Berner Street connection, which will be revealed at my talk in September.

Rob

I wonder Rob if you or anyone else has followed up on a common belief that one of the International Club members brothers lived in the Model Homes off Goulston?

I recall hearing that bantied about at one time, and thought if you had more intensively researched this murder you might have stumbled across something.

Best regards,

Mike R

[robhouse]

Well, Maurice was from Warta Poland, about 40 miles south of Klodawa, where Aaron's family is from. Maruice arrived in England I think in Dec 1889, according to his naturalization record.

There are a lot of Kozminskis around the Kalisch area, and I assume they may have originated in the town Kozmin (which is, incidentally, about halfway between Klodawa and Warta). I would guess that family name goes back into the 18th century and probably earlier. Warta also has a street called "Kozminska" street.

My point being, Kozminski was a common name in that whole area. I figure if you go back a few hundred years, they are all related technically. But I doubt Maurice and Aaron are related closely, if at all.

That said, I do have an interesting Berner Street connection, which will be revealed at my talk in September.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob, that must be the guy. Everyone knows about him, but no one talks about him. I've tried numerous times to get discussion going about the Berner Street Koz, but it seems they've been written off as irrelevant, and perhaps for good reason, but I'm just hazy on what that reason(s) is.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[robhouse]

Hi Rob. I suppose I just picture Kozminski as looking like his fellow Jewish countrymen, which I imagine to be the very epitome of what makes the Jewish look. More to the point, I'm curious why Phil Carter assumes that BS Man was Jewish, but didn't look Jewish. Ironically (or perhaps not so), the only Jews of the area who come to mind who didn't like religious Jews and who would probably adapt (if not invent) anti-Semitic epithets, are the very Jews who lived and played in the house BS Man stood in front of, and only a street over from Lipski himself. Of course, there's also the grossly ignored Kosminski's of 74 Berner Street who, for some reason, everyone assumes have absolutely no connection to Aaron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Do you mean Maurice Kosminski, of 70 Berner St?
RH

[GregBaron]

Just a few...

Hello Greg. Actually, IF the story were concocted, it was likely later that day.

The initial discussion would more likely have involved whether to go to the police, drag Liz out of the yard, etc.

Hi Lynn,

Is there any evidence that Schwarz was connected to the club?

Do you believe he was really walking past during the murder?

Why would an anarchist Jew whack Liz Stride and risk a pogrom?

Would the police not investigate Schwarz's contact with club members?


Greg

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Without wishing to get embroiled in a contentious debate, it's worth pointing out that conspiracies—and there have been more than a few of varying flavours within my living memory—succeed simply because the vast majority of perfectly reasonable people refuse to believe they could succeed.

This is not to give credibility to the conspiracy industry.

However, disbelief always works in the conspirator's favour.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

Kosminski

Hello Tom. Was that Martin Kosminski? Jessie?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

let's discuss

Hello Greg. Actually, IF the story were concocted, it was likely later that day.

The initial discussion would more likely have involved whether to go to the police, drag Liz out of the yard, etc.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob. I suppose I just picture Kozminski as looking like his fellow Jewish countrymen, which I imagine to be the very epitome of what makes the Jewish look. More to the point, I'm curious why Phil Carter assumes that BS Man was Jewish, but didn't look Jewish. Ironically (or perhaps not so), the only Jews of the area who come to mind who didn't like religious Jews and who would probably adapt (if not invent) anti-Semitic epithets, are the very Jews who lived and played in the house BS Man stood in front of, and only a street over from Lipski himself. Of course, there's also the grossly ignored Kosminski's of 74 Berner Street who, for some reason, everyone assumes have absolutely no connection to Aaron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Garry Wroe]

Come on, Greg. Everyone knows that the CIA had no involvement in the destruction of the Twin Towers. They were way too busy at the time covering up their part in alien abductions.

[GregBaron]

Let's get our story straight...

which is why conspiracy theories almost without exception prove to be baseless.

This may be the smartest statement I've ever read on Casebook.

Many of us tend to make a chess match out of a Clue game...

I still believe in the simplest explanation thing....I won't mention any razors or anything to avoid an epistemological debate with Lynn...

It's a pretty impressive conspiracy if the Jews gathered for 15 minutes and came up with Pipeman, Lipski and a very counter-intuitive struggle - not to mention great specifics about the path taken by Schwarz.....I guess I'll soon be believing the CIA blew up the twin towers..........



Greg

[Garry Wroe]

… part of the trouble with his testimony, for my part, is that nobody else saw what he saw, nobody else even saw him at the scene ...

That makes Schwartz neither unique nor suspicious, Dave. There was no corroboration for Mrs Long’s story, nor for Sarah Lewis’s Wideawake man or Mary Cox’s Blotchy. The one witness who did see anything of note whilst in the company of others was Lawende, and his description of Eddowes’ Church Passage companion was largely contradicted by Levy.

It’s the nature of the beast, I’m afraid. These crimes were committed at times when the streets were largely deserted of human traffic, making meaningful sightings few and far between. This is not to say that witness statements should be accepted uncritically. Far from it. Violenia, Packer and Hutchinson each serves as a reminder of the pitfalls of blind faith in this context. But if we are to cast aspersions against those who are no longer around to defend their reputations, we should at least be doing so from a foundation of solid evidence.

… and additionally of course there are the largely unanswered questions about who he actually was, where was he moving from, and what happened to him post 1888...if some of the gaps could be filled, maybe he'd be better trusted, and less regarded as having a theatrical bent ...

It is a historical reality, Dave, that many of the Jews who settled in London during the period under scrutiny attempted to acquire social acceptance by anglicizing their names. Others moved to different parts of the country or indeed other countries. This was an era of social turmoil and inadequate record keeping. The London police had yet to adopt fingerprinting, and the Home Secretary appeared to believe that an image of the killer might be obtainable via the photographing of victims’ retinae. It was an altogether different world from the one we inhabit. Thus I see nothing suspicious in the mystery surrounding Schwartz’s post-1888 movements. In my experience the solutions to the vast majority of such issues turn out to be simple and eminently mundane – which is why conspiracy theories almost without exception prove to be baseless.

[Phil Carter]

Why would you find that surprising?

Hello Rob,

Actually, Kosminski in any form didnt enter my mind. I am saying that Stride's killer may have been thought, through Anderson's info gatherers, to be a Polish Jew.
Not named in his book and (we are told) dead in an asylum.
(No eventual chance of being libelled IFsaid Polish Jew was alive)

All bases nicely covered.

Best wishes

Phil

[robhouse]

Are you suggesting that Aaron Kosminski did not have a Jewish appearance? I would find that surprising.

Why would you find that surprising?