A Case of Misattribution?

[Garry Wroe]

Perhaps he did, and it was so quick that Schwartz did not realise he had witnessed her murder.

That's an interesting hypothesis, Jon. But then the attack occurred in the street. The bloodflow from Stride's neck wound suggests that the injury was inflicted on the spot where the body was discovered.

[Jon Guy]

So knowing her throat had been cut she goes into the yard sits down and dies

Goes into the yard, Trevor?
Looks to me like she was simply pushed or pulled one or two yards into the passageway (which is what Schwartz describes). Her feet were almost touching the gates, and her scarf showed that it had been pulled tight.

[Garry Wroe]

The three 'quiet' screams as described by Schwartz suggest to my mind that Stride knew her attacker and didn't consider herself to be in any real physical danger.

[lynn cates]

once more, before I die

Hello Trevor. Are you suggesting her last request was one of the cashous?

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

If the assault was a prelude to murder, I doubt if choice entered into the equation.

Possibly, if he was known to her, but it's a fair point. Nevertheless, someone killed Stride within, at most, 10 -15 minutes of this assault. I guess Pipeman could have played the part of a man coming to her rescue. She might have trusted such an individual.

Regards, Bridewell.

Can we stick to facts not make things up as we go along

So many original facts and theories do not stand up to close scrutiny

[Trevor Marriott]

Perhaps he did, and it was so quick that Schwartz did not realise he had witnessed her murder.

So knowing her throat had been cut she goes into the yard sits down and dies

[Bridewell]

Pipeman?

So why not kill her in the course of carrying out the assault ?

What would have made a woman who had been violently assaulted by a man then choose to go into a dark area with him?

If the assault was a prelude to murder, I doubt if choice entered into the equation.

Coupled with the fact that the assault took place in a busy street and the man knowing that he may have been seen and may have been known. Would he then go onto kill that woman ?

Possibly, if he was known to her, but it's a fair point. Nevertheless, someone killed Stride within, at most, 10 -15 minutes of this assault. I guess Pipeman could have played the part of a man coming to her rescue. She might have trusted such an individual.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Jon Guy]

So why not kill her in the course of carrying out the assault ?

Perhaps he did, and it was so quick that Schwartz did not realise he had witnessed her murder.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

It's hardly unreasonable to speculate that a man seen to assault a woman fifteen minutes before her body is found may have been her killer. There's no more supposition in that than in the suggestion that the assault was violent rejection by an offended passer-by.

Regards, Bridewell.

So why not kill her in the course of carrying out the assault ?

What would have made a woman who had been violently assaulted by a man then choose to go into a dark area with him? Coupled with the fact that the assault took place in a busy street and the man knowing that he may have been seen and may have been known. Would he then go onto kill that woman ?

[Garry Wroe]

The statstics show just how rare these sort of attacks were on women.

Perhaps, Lechmere. But they do not demonstrate that Stride was a victim of Jack the Ripper.

Two in one night in walking distance of each other and neatly allowing a timeframe for the same person to potentially do both... with the first showing potrential for interruption and hence unsated activity.

And yet one of these murders evinces not a single element of the Whitechapel Murderer’s modus operandi or crime scene signature.

And yet some want it to be another hand ...

Want, Lechmere? I rather suspect that you are confusing evidentially based conclusions with some unspecified agenda.

… because the cut wasn't quite so deep (because he didn't feel comfortable in that location perhaps) or the body left in a slightly different position (because he was interrupted perhaps).

Or Stride wasn’t killed by Jack the Ripper perhaps.

There can be many reasons why the murders are not duplicates of each other.

As far as I’m aware, Lechmere, no-one is looking for precise duplication. How could they when no two of the Ripper’s crimes were exactly alike? But the murders of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly shared a number of clear and consistent behavioural commonalities which were conspicuous by their absence in the Berner Street crime. The simple fact of the matter is that there was far greater similitude between the murders of Stride and Coles than those of Stride and Eddowes. Does this mean that you believe Coles to have been a Ripper victim too? And are you suggesting that the volatile, aggressive and abusive drunk who assaulted Stride in full view of two witnesses was the same passive individual sighted by Lawende in company with Eddowes at the mouth of Church Passage?

[Garry Wroe]

I am sorry but I still disagree with you.

Entirely your prerogative, Rob.

Incidentally, I am of the opinion that Stride was interrupted by Schwartz, not Diemshitz … We know that a man was seen attacking Stride. I would call this "interruption." If this man was the killer, as I believe, then he would obviously worry that Schwartz would go get a policeman. But he couldn't let Stride live to identify him. So he drags her into the alley, cuts her throat quickly, and bolts. To me this is common sense, and is "consistent with the evidence."

The principal flaw as I see it, Rob, is that Broad Shoulders had done no more than manhandle Stride when Schwartz appeared on the scene. Stride obviously didn’t suspect that she had fallen into the clutches of the Whitechapel Murderer otherwise she would have screamed for all she was worth. So why did he need to silence her? Why not simply walk away rather than commit a murder knowing that he had been seen by two witnesses?

In the case of Chapman's murder, Dr. Phillips reported the "appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck." Also, the cut to the throat went all the way around the neck. To me this goes beyond simply a means of effecting murder, and suggests the killer wanted to decapitate the victim. Hence it is in the category of post-death mutilation.

I’m open minded about the alleged attempted decapitation, Rob. I would suggest, however, that had the killer been intent on removing a victim’s head, he had ample time and opportunity to do so in the privacy of Kelly’s room. That he didn’t is indicative that the spinal scoring was merely an artefact of the ferocity with which the throat injuries were inflicted.

[Bridewell]

Interpretation

I totally agree.

What should be considered is that if Stride was soliciting prior to her death and her soliciting was of an aggresive nature. .i.e physicllay stopping males as they passed by then the likelihood is that one of these males could have quite easily in declining her offer pushed her aside.

Things are not always sometimes what they seem but despite that some choose to interpert them in a way that suits their purpose

Hi Trevor,

It's hardly unreasonable to speculate that a man seen to assault a woman fifteen minutes before her body is found may have been her killer. There's no more supposition in that than in the suggestion that the assault was violent rejection by an offended passer-by.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Loitering or Soliciting

On the other hand, if Schwartz had brought a copper, Stride might have been arrested for soliciting...

Regards, Jon S.

Only if she was doing so in a street or public place. If she was in Dutfields Yard that wouldn't apply. Perhaps that's why she was standing so close to the gateway, because said copper wouldn't be able to arrest her on Schwartz's say-so, the power of arrest being 'found committing' (by a police officer).

Regards, Bridewell.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi All,

These Berner Street scenarios are even more inventive than that of Chief Inspector Swanson.

Regards,

Simon

I totally agree.

What should be considered is that if Stride was soliciting prior to her death and her soliciting was of an aggresive nature. .i.e physicllay stopping males as they passed by then the likelihood is that one of these males could have quite easily in declining her offer pushed her aside.

Things are not always sometimes what they seem but despite that some choose to interpert them in a way that suits their purpose

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

These Berner Street scenarios are even more inventive than that of Chief Inspector Swanson.

Regards,

Simon