A Case of Misattribution?

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Roy

... some of us are aware of the info but some aren't, figured it would be nice to help them out.

Absolutely, Tracy, its good of you to help new people, or those who may have missed it.

I was thinking more 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.'

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

I think my biggest problem is the shifting geography for his homeland.

The one shift was the Star alone referring to him as Hungarian. Gavin Bromley discussed the nationality issue in some depth in his article "Mrs. Kuer's Lodger," which can be read on Casebook.

Roy

[tji]

And yes tji, the Israel Schwartz you showed, found by those researchers who do the heavy lifting, is surely the best fit for the man who came forward in the Stride case. But I thought we knew that already.

[/QUOTE]


Hi Roy

I am not sure of your point here so not sure how to answer. some of us are aware of the info but some aren't, figured it would be nice to help them out.

It's a pity that we lack a definitive link between the the two Schwartzes, Tracy, but the circumstantial case for them being one and the same is fairly compelling. And if, as seems overwhelmingly likely, Schwartz really was Anderson's witness, investigators would have needed to locate him for the purpose of the Seaside Home identification, which in itself is suggestive that he remained in or close to the East End.

Hi Gary

Yeah I know and agree, a more concrete link would be definitely preferable but I think if you take the info of the school intake as well as the census as they both confirm the Samuel Street and Jubilee Street addresses for the family, then I think it is a good enough fit myself.

He definitely seemed to move addresses a lot!

Tracy

[lynn cates]

geography

Hello TJ. Thanks. I can agree with that.

The spouse's name change seems easy to account for. I think my biggest problem is the shifting geography for his homeland.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Anarchists R Us

Hello Maria. Thanks.

"I might have an explanation for the date the Vassiliev story appeared, Lynn. Will contact you in a few days, when I'm done. About a Russian translator too."

Sounds good. But the main problem is that Vasiliev did not "become an Anarchist" until November.

"Don't wanna talk for someone else, but I'm under the impression Rob has referred to a Club member losing his temper and throwing her out (as in the BS episode), not killing her."

I thought that Rob had conjectured the club man had killed her in the melee?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Thank you so much Roy. I'll re-start working on this as soon as I have steady internet access and finished with an article on deadline, in a week or two.

For the record, I'm of the opinion that Anderson's witness was Lawende. (I know, unoriginal, but makes much more sense.)

[Garry Wroe]

I personally wouldn't like to bet my house on it but as with most everything in this case there is nothing iron clad.

It's a pity that we lack a definitive link between the the two Schwartzes, Tracy, but the circumstantial case for them being one and the same is fairly compelling. And if, as seems overwhelmingly likely, Schwartz really was Anderson's witness, investigators would have needed to locate him for the purpose of the Seaside Home identification, which in itself is suggestive that he remained in or close to the East End.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Maria,

You mentioned here I found something. Just to clarify, this is about the material including the above, which you posted in the Kaufman thread.

A translation of the third document posted by Rob Clack in his post #72, another report of the French secret police:

Paris, April 30, 1902 (from London).
A new locale for the Russian revolutionaries in London.

Due to the fact that Whitechapel Russian revolutionaries have been lacking space in their current settings, they just rented Liberty Hall at 9, Pelham Street, Brick Lane, E.C. for their conferences.
Gatherings will be taking place regularly on Fridays and Sundays in order to increase membership and to gather funding from English sympathizers to the agenda of the Russian refugees.

And you asked me if I knew anything about 'Liberty Hall.' The answer is, no, and I didn't find it either, as far as I know. The street directories, a listing of businesses, not the census, for the address 9 Pelham Street shows:

1882 - Abraham Rosenthal, Grocer
1888 - no business listing
1895 and 1899 - Angel Schwartz, Chandlers shop
1915 at 9 Pelham- Mrs. Rachel Bernstein, Wholesale furrier and at 11 Pelham - Samuel Angel Schwartz, grocer

I only know of 'Liberty Hall, 9 Pelham St, Brick Lane E' from the French police reports you located. But again, I appreciate you doing the research in Paris and and Rob's assistance and please keep us posted on any future finds you may produce.

Roy

And yes tji, the Israel Schwartz you showed, found by those researchers who do the heavy lifting, is surely the best fit for the man who came forward in the Stride case. But I thought we knew that already.

[tji]

[QUOTE]

Hello TJ. Those look good, but of course contain some discrepancies.

Can we be certain that all these are the same or that any one is identical to the theatrical Hungarian chap?

Hi Lynn

I personally wouldn't like to bet my house on it but as with most everything in this case there is nothing iron clad. There are discrepancies, but the similarities are strong. The maiden name of the women change but the ages and birth places stay the same.
I think it is unlikely that Israel changed his name as he used the name Israel throughout the census's and children's' school records.

[[QUOTE]QUOTE=Bridewell;228593]Hi Tracy,

Thanks for posting the above which may have saved me some hours of fruitless search. Can you throw any light on the discrepancy in his wife's name which seems to change from Eva to Esther & back again over the 20 years? Just on spec, in case he'd moved on, I did try the US immigration records but Israel Schwartz was evidently a name popular with East European immigrants !


Hi Colin

No problem. :0)

I can't say for certain but maybe the fact that Dinah is Esther in 1901 could be she is using a middle name (she is recorded as Dinah E in 1891). And Etta maybe just a shortened version of Esther maybe?

The mother being named Esther in 1901 maybe just a clerical error, writing the name Esther twice as she is back to being Eva in the next census.

An old post of school records courtesy of ChrisP that may help co-corroborate the addresses a little.

[I have been trying to follow up on the research by Gavin and others, and here's a list of this Israel Schwartz's addresses so far:
8 December 1890 - 16 Brunswick Street - admission of daughter Esther to infants' section of Berner Street School.
3 March 1891 - 19 Brunswick Street - birth of son Louis
5 April-12 May 1891 - 22 Samuel Street - census and admission of daughter "Rose" to girls' section of Berner Street School.
12 November 1894-5 November 1895 - 13 Queen Street (off Old Montague Street) - admission of daughter Esther to Jews' Free School; birth of son Daniel.
31 August 1896-6 June 1898 - 143 Back Church Lane - admission of son Louis to the infants' section of Berner Street School; birth of son Judah (a.k.a. Edward).
31 March 1901 - 21 Jubilee Street - census.
29 May-4 July 1901 - 1 John Street, St Georges in the East - birth of son Abraham.[/I]

Tracy

[mariab]

If PR had engineered the "Double Event," his Vasilliev story should have come out about 5-7 days afterward--not in November.
But the records are all still there in Palo Alto. How's your Cyrillic? (heh-heh)

I might have an explanation for the date the Vassiliev story appeared, Lynn. Will contact you in a few days, when I'm done. About a Russian translator too.

Rob Clack's conjecture about a club member losing his temper and killing her is not too bad.

Don't wanna talk for someone else, but I'm under the impression Rob has referred to a Club member losing his temper and throwing her out (as in the BS episode), not killing her.

Nope, don't recall them. You should have posted using your real name. Nobody could take "perrymason" seriously. (just kidding)

If it were just the name! :-)

[Scott Nelson]

... I was on Casebook starting in 2005 and as I recall, one of very few that denounced the Berner Street killing as a Ripper job. Im sure you are aware that the older Casebook discussions are either deleted or archived at some point, but they are available for purchase. Ive found a few of mine as perrymason as far back as 2008 here. Perhaps you will remember a thread I started called The Double Event/Singular Occurrences, that was in 2005-2006 time frame.

Nope, don't recall them. You should have posted using your real name. Nobody could take "perrymason" seriously. (just kidding)

[Michael W Richards]

LOL. I have a penchant for claims of ownership, do I? I guess that makes two of us. I'm well aware that my ideas are so good, everyone wishes they had them first. But most have the sense not to make such claims. I was just reading some of my posts on this topic from 2007 earlier today. Of course, your posts from 2009 preempt mine...in your head. You should ask the only poster on here you trust...Lynn Cates...perhaps he'll set you straight and spare you any further embarrassment. On second thought, just keep on as you are so we can get your inevitable ban over and done with it and get back to some EDUCATED discussion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I wish you would be just be accurate and allow me to avoid a reply, but, I was on Casebook starting in 2005 and as I recall, one of very few that denounced the Berner Street killing as a Ripper job. Im sure you are aware that the older Casebook discussions are either deleted or archived at some point, but they are available for purchase. Ive found a few of mine as perrymason as far back as 2008 here. Perhaps you will remember a thread I started called The Double Event/Singular Occurrences, that was in 2005-2006 time frame. I think Ben, or Glenn, or Sam Flynn, or Monty as I remember might recall it. My questioning of Israel and the evidence of this murder has been consistent throughout.

You have made it clear you believe this case to be a Ripper murder, you have a pet suspect for it and by association, all 5, and you support the Canonical assignations.

I havent and dont, and I havent and dont, and I havent and dont. Im just here to get and give ideas to see if some more rational explanation can be found so that the pet suspect theories give way to actual crime solving.

Now its been made clear again. You must wait a few years before denying this exchange took place, its kinda like the eating/swimming rule.

Lets just move along shall we?

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

Just a short response to your comments Tom,...they were anticipated by mine. I returned for the discussions but Im still well aware of your penchant for claims of ownership. Knowledge is power Tom. I know who said what when, its all been recorded here, people can judge for themselves if they wish to. Im not trying desperately to impress anyone.

LOL. I have a penchant for claims of ownership, do I? I guess that makes two of us. I'm well aware that my ideas are so good, everyone wishes they had them first. But most have the sense not to make such claims. I was just reading some of my posts on this topic from 2007 earlier today. Of course, your posts from 2009 preempt mine...in your head. You should ask the only poster on here you trust...Lynn Cates...perhaps he'll set you straight and spare you any further embarrassment. On second thought, just keep on as you are so we can get your inevitable ban over and done with it and get back to some EDUCATED discussion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Just a short response to your comments Tom,...they were anticipated by mine. I returned for the discussions but Im still well aware of your penchant for claims of ownership. Knowledge is power Tom. I know who said what when, its all been recorded here, people can judge for themselves if they wish to. Im not trying desperately to impress anyone.

Anyhow,.....the volatility potential for that night was looked at by AP Wolf sometime ago and it was clear in his posts that the club was the object of some ire, either by local gentiles up in arms since the Jewish spin put on Annie's murder, or other parties wishing them some form of harm. That would include the local constabulary to some extent. These were the types of men that clashed with the Police the previous November in Trafalgar Square, and with the police in their own yard early in 1889. Key witnesses from the night of the Stride murder are arrested at that fracas.

A scheduled speaker was cancelled that night because of concerns over security.

That establishes that there were factions that were not thrilled about the activities of the club or some of its speakers before that night, and they might pose a threat, and that the club was aware of that.

A murder believed to be committed by members would have closed the club, miraculously however, someone we now hear is or was connected to Wolf Wess saw a gentile accost the victim off the property just before her murder.

Its a timely and well constructed play, too bad the audience was just one individual, Israel. No-one else saw or heard anything from in front of the gates...Spooner and his date, the young couple, James Brown, Fanny Mortimer, until Leon Goldstein waltzes by around 12:56am.

Whats missing is who actually drew the knife across her throat and how or if this case relates to the Mitre Square case and the Grafitto.

Best regards all,

Mike R

[Cogidubnus]

I have to say that Lynn is such a convincing player...and the flower has always loomed large with me...

With regard to Colin's research...hmm ok... continue...

Dave