A Case of Misattribution?

[Tom_Wescott]

With respect, we need to evaluate this crime on the basis of the evidence if we are ever to establish the true sequence of events.

I have...and I did. You're welcome.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

His story, Mike, was that which he related to the press and police, a narrative that involved him approaching Dutfield's Yard from Commercial Road. With respect, we need to evaluate this crime on the basis of the evidence if we are ever to establish the true sequence of events.

Hi Gary,

What I was trying to illustrate was that Israel's story, which took place as you suggest above, could have actually occurred within the passageway, with the same number of individuals and the Israel character leaving via the gates.

The story must answer why she was there, why she was in the passageway, and when... whether she entered it alone, why she had bruises on her chest, why she had her scarf twisted and nicked, why her feet are closest to the gates and street, why she had cashous in her hand, and at what time was she discovered, and by whom. Things like that.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Abby Normal]

Stride was a prostitute, Abby. Why would Broad Shoulders have wasted time and money in plying Stride with drink when the only requirement if he wanted intimacy would have been to present her with fourpence? Either he was an idiot or she was the most incompetent streetwalker ever to have pounded a beat.


The problem being, Abby, that Schwartz saw Stride manhandled and then thrown to the ground. Her natural instinct would have been to use her hands to break her fall. Personally, I doubt that the paper containing the cachous would have survived such an impact, especially since the road and pavement were wet as a consequence of the earlier rain. Thus it seems likely that the packet would have either burst open or become sodden and fallen apart.

Stride’s clothing was neither damaged nor disarranged when her body was found, a reality that suggests she entered the yard consensually. My bet is that Stride went there for the purpose of mollifying Broad Shoulders. If so, it seems likely that this was the point at which she took the cachous from her pocket and offered one to Broad Shoulders. When at some point thereafter Broad Shoulders grabbed the neckerchief and used it to pull Stride off balance, the ligature effect of this action would have caused her to grip the cachous tightly, producing a similar muscular contraction to that which leads to the clenched fists seen in many strangulation victims. Once on the ground the throat wound was inflicted quickly, thus ensuring that the cachous remained intact and in Stride’s hand even after death.

Hi Garry

Stride was a prostitute, Abby. Why would Broad Shoulders have wasted time and money in plying Stride with drink when the only requirement if he wanted intimacy would have been to present her with fourpence? Either he was an idiot or she was the most incompetent streetwalker ever to have pounded a beat.[/

Yes she was. But she was also a human being. Just because she was a prostitute does not mean that every time she went out she was prostituting herself. Perhaps she was looking for a new boyfriend. Actually, Her actions that night as described by the various witnesses seem to describe a woman who was not solicitating.

The problem being, Abby, that Schwartz saw Stride manhandled and then thrown to the ground. Her natural instinct would have been to use her hands to break her fall. Personally, I doubt that the paper containing the cachous would have survived such an impact, especially since the road and pavement were wet as a consequence of the earlier rain. Thus it seems likely that the packet would have either burst open or become sodden and fallen apart.

To me if the cachous was something that Stride valued then I would think that holding on to them tighter so they dont get damaged while being roughed up would be a natural reaction. These poor women probably put great value on items such as this. Its easy to hold onto a small item when falling to the ground-especially if its only in one hand.

Stride’s clothing was neither damaged nor disarranged when her body was found, a reality that suggests she entered the yard consensually. My bet is that Stride went there for the purpose of mollifying Broad Shoulders. If so, it seems likely that this was the point at which she took the cachous from her pocket and offered one to Broad Shoulders. When at some point thereafter Broad Shoulders grabbed the neckerchief and used it to pull Stride off balance, the ligature effect of this action would have caused her to grip the cachous tightly, producing a similar muscular contraction to that which leads to the clenched fists seen in many strangulation victims. Once on the ground the throat wound was inflicted quickly, thus ensuring that the cachous remained intact and in Stride’s hand even after death.

[/QUOTE]

I doubt someone who had just been attacked by someone would then immediatey go willingly into a secluded area with them.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Garry, you are absolutely right that Elizabeth Stride could have known her killer. And yes, that man could have been Jack the Ripper.

A serial killer doesn't have to be complete stranger to his victims.

Roy

No, but no signs of a struggle and cachous in hand - does it look like a heat of the moment murder?

I'd expect there to be a right old carry on.

Seems to me the killer managed to get her where he wanted before quickly despatching of her life. Sounds like Jack.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Sorry, FM, but there was nothing mutually exclusive regarding these two conditions. Investigators clearly regarded Schwartz as a truthful and important witness whilst at the same time concluding that Stride was a Ripper victim.

Fair enough Garry.

I find it hard to believe that of all these statements of: "the only man"...they all neglected to mention that the man in question witnessed a struggle.

Assuming the emphasis is on proving the point, then such a struggle 15 minutes before the body was found could only possible press that point.

On balance, and I've changed my mind a couple of times, I can only see that Schwartz was not the "only man", and if he wasn't that man then clearly they arrived at the conclusion that he was talking cack.

[Roy Corduroy]

Agreed, Roy. I just don't happen to believe that there is any justification for the assumption that Jack the Ripper killed Liz Stride. Still, maybe someone will present some evidence to support the notion of the double event.

And that's fine, Garry. If you feel there's no evidence, or no one has ever expounded upon the double event scenario persuasively, well, I'd be a total idiot to try now, wouldn't I? (note to self)

Roy

[lynn cates]

hold on

Hello Abby. Thanks. I was in jest about the cut throat and screams.

Out of curiosity, if you had a female companion, and you two were kanoodling, would you find it a bit odd for her to be holding, say, car keys all the while?

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

Agreed, Roy. I just don't happen to believe that there is any justification for the assumption that Jack the Ripper killed Liz Stride. Still, maybe someone will present some evidence to support the notion of the double event.

[Roy Corduroy]

Garry, you are absolutely right that Elizabeth Stride could have known her killer. And yes, that man could have been Jack the Ripper.

A serial killer doesn't have to be complete stranger to his victims.

Roy

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. Thanks.

"I have always held this view-did not know Fish ever thought this."

Hmm, you must chat him up sometime.

Regarding the cachous. If they come out BEFORE BS departs, why does she hold on to them? Nervous habit, as I suggested?

"From here my sequence is:

BS man only gets up the street a bit before losing his temper and turns around and heads back to Liz. Enter Schwartz."

Alright. Is he really tipsy or not? If he is, whence the alcohol between bidding Liz "Good night" and meeting her again?

"He assaults Liz (perhaps even cutting her throat at this point), . . . "

Hmm, that would explain why her screams were not loud (heh-heh).

". . . scares off Schwartz, pulls her into the yard (perhaps cutting her throat at this point), leaves."

I think the biggest problem is STILL the long hold on the cachous.

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC

Regarding the cachous. If they come out BEFORE BS departs, why does she hold on to them? Nervous habit, as I suggested?

Sure-why not. Anyway its only been a few moments since he left her and returned according to my scenario.

Alright. Is he really tipsy or not? If he is, whence the alcohol between bidding Liz "Good night" and meeting her again?

Its irrelevant. maybe he is maybe hes not. If he is it could be the effects of when they were drinking earlier in the pub that B&G saw them.

Hmm, that would explain why her screams were not loud (heh-heh).

Absolutely. And if he does not cut her throat then but when he drags her into the yard then the not loud screams could be explained by her just wanting this pissed off punter leaving her alone and not thinking she needed to scream bloddy murder at the top of her lungs because she is being attacked by JtR.

I think the biggest problem is STILL the long hold on the cachous.

Nah. If she is talking flirting and kissing this man then it would be natural for her to be holding them.

[Garry Wroe]

The events and BS mans actions indicate a man who had spent some time money and effort (drinks in the pub,the flower, the multiple witnesses)to get Liz into a secluded spot for the pretense of sex and when she continued to refuse and a gave him a final refusal to go into dutfields yard he left her suddenly in frustration.

Stride was a prostitute, Abby. Why would Broad Shoulders have wasted time and money in plying Stride with drink when the only requirement if he wanted intimacy would have been to present her with fourpence? Either he was an idiot or she was the most incompetent streetwalker ever to have pounded a beat.

The insistance that her holding the cashous when the body was found as having to indicate a peacful normal alley way encounter between a prostitute and client is just plain wrong IMHO. Many a violently attacked and murdered person has been found still clutching something. She had probably been holding it prior to the attack when her and BS man were still in the "flirting" stage before he got angry.

The problem being, Abby, that Schwartz saw Stride manhandled and then thrown to the ground. Her natural instinct would have been to use her hands to break her fall. Personally, I doubt that the paper containing the cachous would have survived such an impact, especially since the road and pavement were wet as a consequence of the earlier rain. Thus it seems likely that the packet would have either burst open or become sodden and fallen apart.

Stride’s clothing was neither damaged nor disarranged when her body was found, a reality that suggests she entered the yard consensually. My bet is that Stride went there for the purpose of mollifying Broad Shoulders. If so, it seems likely that this was the point at which she took the cachous from her pocket and offered one to Broad Shoulders. When at some point thereafter Broad Shoulders grabbed the neckerchief and used it to pull Stride off balance, the ligature effect of this action would have caused her to grip the cachous tightly, producing a similar muscular contraction to that which leads to the clenched fists seen in many strangulation victims. Once on the ground the throat wound was inflicted quickly, thus ensuring that the cachous remained intact and in Stride’s hand even after death.

[Garry Wroe]

Israel Schwartz's story may well have been what he saw inside the gates when leaving the club through the side door, which ends up with Liz on the ground and BSM "assisting" her.

His story, Mike, was that which he related to the press and police, a narrative that involved him approaching Dutfield's Yard from Commercial Road. With respect, we need to evaluate this crime on the basis of the evidence if we are ever to establish the true sequence of events.

[Michael W Richards]

Israel Schwartz's story may well have been what he saw inside the gates when leaving the club through the side door, which ends up with Liz on the ground and BSM "assisting" her.

If thats the real story, then BSM could have been a gentile passing by and could have seen Liz inside the gates and assumed she was "working the streets", makes a rough advance on her and she rebuffs him,..he could be a Jew in the yard who sees Liz waiting around in the passage and decides in his drunken state to accost her, he could be someone who knows Liz is working for the Jews and he is caught up in the anti Jew sentiments of that time, he could be a security guard hired for the night who is really just a street tough and he accosts Liz, it could be someone who has feelings for her and is upset because she is dating a Jew instead, ....or it could be someone who is attempting to cast suspicion on the Club Jews for murder, and at that time by default, for perhaps even housing The Ripper.

BSM is drunk, he sidles up to Liz in the passageway with the idea to take her deeper into the yard for some fun, she resists, insults him. Tells him she isnt working tonight and takes out her cashous.He warns her about her smart mouth, pokes her hard in the chest a few times and grabs her, she pulls back and falls. He bends down to pull her up, she spits in his face, he grabs her scarf, twists it and with his free hand runs a blade across her exposed throat, nicking the scarf on the same line and angle as the cut. Drops the scarf, her head sets down.... and she bleeds out.

Does he scramble out the gate? Doesnt appear anyone saw anyone bolt out the gates at any time, so perhaps someone has pulled him off her and back into the yard when the body is discovered. In the ensuing confusion he might enter the club via the side door and leave via the front door....he might even be seen cleaning his knife soon thereafter in an alley. Who discovers the body? How much time is needed for the above scenario to play out if we assume that the PC saw Liz last at 12:35?

Then we might have a cut nearer to 12:45, and then we can understand why 3 club witnesses and Edward Spooner suggested by their times that they were alerted to the body around 12:40-12:45.

Its the reason Fanny never sees Liz, its the reason no-one is seen at 12:45 near the gates by Brown, and its the reason that Blackwell suggested her cut may have been as early as 12:46. If his estimate is accurate to within 5-10 minutes, it works with the above.

The only flies in that ointment are Louis, Morris, Lave and Israel...all it would seem with connections to the club and/or its members.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Garry Wroe]

Additionally, IF Stride knew her attacker as you suggest, then the background information that she cleaned in the house(s) of a/some Jews is/are/could be relevant no?

Absolutely, Phil.

Hypothesis only- waiting for a person she knew to come from the club in order to ask for/earn/advance her the rent money she needed that night? Attacked whilst waiting?

Anything's possible, Phil. She may even have been having an affair with one of the club members.

[Garry Wroe]

The Pall Mall Gazette seems to clinch it for Schwartz not being the witness, which would appear to cast doubt on the perceived veracity of Schwartz's story as Stride was deemed to be a ripper victim.

Sorry, FM, but there was nothing mutually exclusive regarding these two conditions. Investigators clearly regarded Schwartz as a truthful and important witness whilst at the same time concluding that Stride was a Ripper victim.