A Case of Misattribution?

[lynn cates]

identity

Hello TJ. Those look good, but of course contain some discrepancies.

Can we be certain that all these are the same or that any one is identical to the theatrical Hungarian chap?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

this, that, other

Hello Tom. Thanks. Not sure we are off topic--perhaps.

"The pubs had closed, but not the club."

Concedo.

"If you follow Stride's movements that evening from 7pm on, we keep finding her inside or just outside a pub, which is where a woman would find custom. As for her whereabouts at 11:30pm, she was either finishing up with the Bricklayer's Arm man, or just hooking up with the man Marshall watched her with for 10 minutes."

Difficult to follow given the disparity in descriptions.

"She got there prior to 12:35, when she was spotted by White, she is known to have spoken to a young, well-dressed man with a paper package at that time, or as I suspect, possibly a clubman holding his stack of Arbeter Fraint."

No disagreement here.

"She is also suspected to have spoken with James Brown's man around 12:45 and BS Man around the same time."

Indeed. And I find that "troubling."

"I suspect the Brown sighting occurred first."

To be honest, I think the Brown sighting a mistake (different couple) and the Schwartz "sighting" a fairy tale--albeit, a useful one.

"Why? She was making money."

Very well, but en donde esta? She had no money on her when found.

"Why take out the cachous? Because she had to."

Had to?

"Why go into the yard? Probably the same reason."

After an assault?

"And why did Le Grand kill her? I have no idea."

Nor yet I.

"Maybe he killed them all."

Doubt it.

"Or maybe just her."

Or maybe just Kate.

"He had just signed on with the Vigilance Committee days before, then two women die, then he shows up in Berner Street buying false testimony, gets in the mix with the Batty Street lodger nonsense, then his new boss gets a kidney in the mail."

Still think he is trying to get to the bottom of Liz's case.

"Lotta activity to happen around a known sociopath, arguably the only sociopath woman-hater with access to police beat movements and a free pass to walk the east end streets wearing silent boots and carrying weapons."

Good points for a killing. But a motive is needed. Hire? Looks promising.

"But hey, this is Ripperology, and everything's just a coincidence, right?"

All depends whose thesis is in the dock. (heh-heh)

"Anyway, I just realized (again!) this is a Kozminski thread, and we're way off topic."

No difficulty there. just let Kosminski be the 12.35 club lad and we are off the hook--perhaps even virtuous.

Cheers.
LC

[tji]

It appears that Maria has found what Im sure many have heard me suggest for years here, (just in case other proprietary claims are made), .. that Israel likely had a club connection. Bravo. Cant wait to read about what is suggested in your comments Maria.

Mike I think it is only a logical conclusion that Schwartz may have been a member of the club, given the circumstances, the problem is more proving it than figuring it out.

Hi Colin

We have Israel Schwartz in the census as Israel Schwartz right up to 1911


I thought I would post Israel Schwartz through the census from 1891 - 1901.

In 1891 at 22 Great Samuel Street lived

Israel Schwartz Head 27 Tailor's Presser Born in Poland.
Eva Schwartz Wife 27 Born in Poland
Dinah E Schwartz Dau 6 Scholar Born in Poland.
Louis Schawrtz son 6mt Born in St George's East London


In 1901 at 21 Jubilee Street, Stepney lived

Israel Schwartz Head 36 Provisions dealer o/a Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Wife 36 Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz Dau 16 Dress maker Born in Russia
Louis Schwartz Son 12 Scholar St George's East London
Daniel Schwartz Son 6 Scholar St George's East London
Edward Schwartz Son 3 St George's east London
Abraham Schwartz Son 1 St George's East London

In 1911 at 26 Prince's Square, Cable Street St George's East

Israel Schwartz Head 48 Tailor Worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Eva Schwartz Wife 48 Born in Poland and Jewish
Etta Schwartz dau 25 Dressmaker worker Born in Poland and Jewish
Lionel Schwartz son 21 Fur cutter worker Born in Middlesex St George East
Daniel Schwartz son 17 Watchmaker worker Born in Middlesex St GeorgeEast
Judah Schwartz son 13 Born in Middlesex St George East
Abie Schwartz son 11 Born in Middlesex St George East
Monte Schwartz 9 Born in Middlesex St George in East

The couple have been married for 28 years with a total of 11 children 6 still living and 5 who have died. They are all living in a 4 roomed house (you count the Kitchen as a room but not bathroom, scullery, landing, lobby or closet)

I don't think he had any reason to change his name but feel free to prove me wrong

Tracy

[Tom_Wescott]

Israel Sunshine looks like an example of an immigrant Jew anglicising his name. If it was a direct translation of the original he would have been Israel Sonnenschein or something similar. I suspect the possibility of Israel Schwartz as Israel Black has already been looked at in the later records? If not, I'll have a go.

I think that's a brilliant idea.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

"Do you know where Liz was at 11:30pm?"

Not at all. Nor can I find a coherent reason for her to be at the club. (Well, other than a meeting.)

The pubs had closed, but not the club. If you follow Stride's movements that evening from 7pm on, we keep finding her inside or just outside a pub, which is where a woman would find custom. As for her whereabouts at 11:30pm, she was either finishing up with the Bricklayer's Arm man, or just hooking up with the man Marshall watched her with for 10 minutes.

"Not back door, nor side door. She was standing in the gateway speaking to strange men as they walked by (According to Schwartz). And Charles Le Grand aka Pipeman killed her."

When did she get there? To whom did she speak? Why?

She got there prior to 12:35, when she was spotted by White, she is known to have spoken to a young, well-dressed man with a paper package at that time, or as I suspect, possibly a clubman holding his stack of Arbeter Fraint. She is also suspected to have spoken with James Brown's man around 12:45 and BS Man around the same time. I suspect the Brown sighting occurred first. Why? She was making money.

And if it's BS man, why would she take out the cachous right after the assault? Why go into the yard?

And, above all, why would LeGrand wish to kill her? (Eddowes? Now that's different.)

Why take out the cachous? Because she had to. Why go into the yard? Probably the same reason. And why did Le Grand kill her? I have no idea. Maybe he killed them all. Or maybe just her. He had just signed on with the Vigilance Committee days before, then two women die, then he shows up in Berner Street buying false testimony, gets in the mix with the Batty Street lodger nonsense, then his new boss gets a kidney in the mail. Lotta activity to happen around a known sociopath, arguably the only sociopath woman-hater with access to police beat movements and a free pass to walk the east end streets wearing silent boots and carrying weapons. But hey, this is Ripperology, and everything's just a coincidence, right?

Anyway, I just realized (again!) this is a Kozminski thread, and we're way off topic. Where's Garry Wroe?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding Mortimer. Both she and Schwartz said it was very quiet on Berner Street at that time, and there's no reason to call either a liar. Leon Goldstein also appears not to have seen a soul as he walked along the street. Had Leon and Mortimer described more activity, then we'd have stronger reason to doubt Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott[/QUOTE]

On the above quote of yours Tom, you cant dismiss what Fanny didnt hear one minute then use her to corroborate your uncorroborated witness. Fanny heard no scuffle, no "Lipski" and no running boots either.

It appears by the evidence that the young couple, Fanny Mortimer, Spooner, nor Eagle or Lave at 12:40ish...(who also dont see each other)...see or hear nothing just outside the gates of the club at around 12:40, 12:45. No-one saw anyone run from Berner Street chased by someone else, they would have literally bumped into Brown and the young couple based on the times, and no-one else claims they saw Liz Stride after 12:35 until Louis claims he finds her at 1. Interesting that Brown and Spooner are at the Inquest, either one could have validated Schwartz's story. Fanny and Israel arent. Because of what she didnt see or hear, and because no-one matches up with what Israel said.

It appears that Maria has found what Im sure many have heard me suggest for years here, (just in case other proprietary claims are made), .. that Israel likely had a club connection. Bravo. Cant wait to read about what is suggested in your comments Maria.


Best regards,

Mike R

[lynn cates]

Jacob

Hello Colin. You might also have a go at Jacob (= Israel) as a first name.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Sunshine

Israel Sunshine of the Berner Street club lived in the Goulston Street building on which the graffiti was written.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Israel Sunshine looks like an example of an immigrant Jew anglicising his name. If it was a direct translation of the original he would have been Israel Sonnenschein or something similar. I suspect the possibility of Israel Schwartz as Israel Black has already been looked at in the later records? If not, I'll have a go.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Por que?

Hello Tom. Thanks.

"Do you know where Liz was at 11:30pm?"

Not at all. Nor can I find a coherent reason for her to be at the club. (Well, other than a meeting.)

"Not back door, nor side door. She was standing in the gateway speaking to strange men as they walked by (According to Schwartz). And Charles Le Grand aka Pipeman killed her."

When did she get there? To whom did she speak? Why?

And if it's BS man, why would she take out the cachous right after the assault? Why go into the yard?

And, above all, why would LeGrand wish to kill her? (Eddowes? Now that's different.)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I have checked and double checked. The main problem is the time. If she were a police spy, it made no sense to be there at 12.30--the meeting was breaking up around 11.30.

Do you know where Liz was at 11:30pm?

Don't know. Looks like she is being met at the back door of the club. Ideas?

Not back door, nor side door. She was standing in the gateway speaking to strange men as they walked by (According to Schwartz). And Charles Le Grand aka Pipeman killed her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"I nevertheless reserve the right to consider Schwarz reliable until proven otherwise."

A wise policy.

"I believe I remember that Lynn may consider her some kind of informant and therefore one who had to be silenced."

I have checked and double checked. The main problem is the time. If she were a police spy, it made no sense to be there at 12.30--the meeting was breaking up around 11.30.

"But if the club was uninterested in silencing her, then who was?"

Don't know. Looks like she is being met at the back door of the club. Ideas?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

... I personally think common sense dictates the two must have enjoyed some association, but common sense and evidence are not one and the same.

Yes, its a reasonable conclusion to make.
Thanks for clarifying the matter.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

No, there's not, but she's digging to find something. Nothing more than what I previously pointed out to you on another thread - Schwartz lived on Berner Street up until the day of the murder. He was a young, Jewish immigrant who didn't speak English. The Berner Street club was a big club on a small street catering to young, Jewish immigrants. I personally think common sense dictates the two must have enjoyed some association, but common sense and evidence are not one and the same. Schwartz may, in fact, have been heading to the club (potentially his previous temporary residence) when his way was blocked by the 'fighting couple' and he crossed the street. This would explain why he lingered close to the club entrance and got so good at look at the woman, and why when he reached the kerb across the street, he turned to look back at the couple, before becoming frightened by Pipeman and running off.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Yes, there is, and I'm in the process of sorting it out.

So there actually IS evidence?, evidence exists which connects Schwartz with this Club?

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Monty.

I nevertheless reserve the right to consider Schwarz reliable until proven otherwise.

Absolutely. Same here. I've looked at this probably closer than anyone, and while I think it probable that Schwartz was no stranger to the Berner Street club, I have found nothing to convince me that he was lying, or covering for the members of the club. And believe me when I say I looked hard to find something. But it's just not there.

Regarding Mortimer. Both she and Schwartz said it was very quiet on Berner Street at that time, and there's no reason to call either a liar. Leon Goldstein also appears not to have seen a soul as he walked along the street. Had Leon and Mortimer described more activity, then we'd have stronger reason to doubt Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott