A Case of Misattribution?

[Cogidubnus]

Again, in an abstract sense, isnt a foil used to divert attention away from two main things, place and time?
Timing here being the factor I see as the main problem.

Hi Phil

If (and I stress if) Schwartz is a false witness, then time is surely only incidental to the identity of the malfactor...

Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hello Cris, Dave, Lynn, Abby, Trevor, Simon, Greg, all,

Take the following as a given-

The letter sent to the police through the Press Agency was a Press/journalist invention.
The follow up Saucy Jack, believed to be AS GENUINE and promoted as such via the blow up posters pasted outside the police stations, equally invented.
--------------------
Now in pasting those posters up, the police showed their hand. They promoted these items as REAL. I am in grave doubt that they, even if they knew of any newspapermans subterfuge early after the promotion of the posters(which we dont know) would admit to being hoodwinked by a journalist and then be shown to being a lauging stock.

Therefore they HAD to stick to the idea of the Saucy Jack follow up whatever, even if they sniffed a rat early on. Thats where the double event got confirmed and the Schwartz story quelled, BEFORE the inquest.

The press were after the guts of the police. The area was in turmoil. Anarchy was in the air. Politicians involvement (Home Sec) put pressure on from above. The police were being squeezed in a sandwich. They HAD to stick by their decisions- and thats why I believe Anderson's Polish Jew Killer was referring to the Stride murderer only- as he may have been later informed that the 'word on the street' is... And later the men who refused to ID the killer was a fellow Jew from inside the ring connected to tie IWMEC.
He then just called 'Jack the Ripper'- the invented name- a Polish Jew and THAT has been taken because of Anderson's ego wording to be the killer of ALL the wonen. Case solved. Anderson righteous. Press involvement nullified

That. To me, is a realistic scenario. All bases covered.
Simon Wood is bang on- the Saucy Jack postcard nullifies Schwartz and the double event is both born and protected- because Schwartz doesnt have the official mouthpiece through the Post Mortem. Exit the one person that could show the police to be incompetant.

Anderson admitted that the letter etc was an invention. What he DIDNT admit was that he realised the police had been hoodwinked by it. So Jack, the Polish Jew, killed the lot, if not, then Jack didnt exist, did he?

Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Veracity

I think you have it backwards. There is no evidence that he was lying so until the conspiracists come up with something then you should be directing that statement to them.

Hi Abby

I've been very open in playing the devil's advocate, and trying hard to maintain an open mind...I've said as much several times...but nonetheless, according to you, if I query the honesty of a witness I ought to be asking the "Conspiracists" (whoever they are) about it...

So, by contrast, presumably if I'm inclined to trust a witness I should talk to you?..so how do you feel about Hutchinson for example, or Maxwell, or Long or whoever? Should I trust them implicitly on your unsupported say so? Or not?

No that'd be daft - and I'm sure that's not what you intended to convey - Accept it Abby, some witnesses are generally honest, some are generally not...and here we are 124 years later trying to sort the wheat from the chaff...somebody has to ask...

Do you really think a foreigner in a new country a conservative looking Jew with a family who does not even speak the language is going to place himself and his family in severe jeopardy and lie to the police in a murder case????

Adding four question marks doesn't actually reinforce the quality of your question - but he's conservative looking? I thought he was supposed to be theatrical...source please? And, by the by, as I posited earlier in the thread, his non-mastery of the English language could actually be very easily turned to advantage...

Ah a family...could you let me have details please, as it may help me make up my mind one way or the other...

Cheers

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Hello Cris, Dave, Lynn, Abby, Trevor, Simon, Greg, all,

Take the following as a given-

The letter sent to the police through the Press Agency was a Press/journalist invention.
The follow up Saucy Jack, believed to be AS GENUIne and promoted as such via the blow up posters pasted outside the police stations, equally invented.

Now in pasting those posters up, the police showed their hand. They promoted these bogus items as REAL. I am in grave doubt that they, even if they knew of any newspapermans subterfuge early after the promotion of the posters(which we dont know) would admit to being hoodwinked by a journalist and then be shown to being a lauging stock.

Therefore they HAD to stick to the idea of the Saucy Jack follow up whatever, even if they sniffed a rat early on. Thats where the double event got confirmed and the Schwartz story quelled, BEFORE the inquest.

The press were after the guts of the police. The area was in turmoil. Anarchy was in the air. Politicians involvement (Home Sec) put pressure on from above. The police were being squeezed in a sandwich. They HAD to stick by their decisions- and thats why I believe Anderson's Polish Jew Killer was referring to the Stride murderer only- as he may have been later informed that the 'word on the street' is... And later the men who refused to ID the killer was a fellow Jew from inside the ring connected to tie IWMEC.
He then just called 'Jack the Ripper'- the invented name- a Polish Jew and THAT has been taken because of Anderson's ego wording to be the killer of ALL the wonen. Case solved. Anderson righteous. Press involvement nullified

That. To me, is a realistic scenario. All bases covered.
Simon Wood is bang on- the Saucy Jack postcard nullifies Schwartz and the double event is both born and protected- because Schwartz doesnt have the official mouthpiece through the Post Mortem. Exit the one person that could show the police to be incompetant.

Best wishes

Phil

How does Schwartz nullify the double event?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil. But Schwartz did not witness any Jews, or at least not to our knowledge. He witnessed the very un-Jewish appearing Pipeman, and the epithet-spitting BS Man. Are you suggesting that Aaron Kosminski did not have a Jewish appearance? I would find that surprising. But I liked your idea about the letters. I can't disagree that there's many examples of the LVP London police refusing to admit error to save face.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom, Abby,

Schwartz's testimony must have caused enough concern (pipeman) to have caused a decision to be made to keep his testimony back. It is Pipemans follow up prescence and testimony that incriminates, does it not? Pipeman is the unknown factor here. And by proxy an important one for Anderson. The 'word on the street'...
Im not talking Kosminski here Tom, Im talking a Polish Jew, unnamed by Anderson in Andersons book.
The points of import are in the additional paragraph in my last post. Anderson admits to the world the journalistic invention. There is no way that would have been admitted at the time or soon after, and so he HAD to keep the TWO correspondances together, keeping the double event as a fact- that way he is clear to blame the Polish Jew for ALL the killings- thereby Jack the Ripper, SINGLE evader of the police, lives on- meaning that Anderson bleats his ego and says Jack the Ripper was known and incarcerated. The police, under Anderson, have a clean reputation.

Best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Even if the slightest sniff of those invemtions came out, the police would have been made to look really stupid. The journalist himself couldnt admit hoodwinking the police with those inventions, nor anyone else either who may have known.

Anderson was the man who rode in on his white horse to save the day- NOT just quell the murder series, but the reputation of the police. The masses were being stirred up and all hell was breaking loose. NOBODY was actually seen to be in control.

If that sounds dramatic- well thats how it was. Fear, panic, and fingers of blame being pointed.

Best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil. But weren't the police in the press in 1888 and afterwards expressing their opinion that the letters were hoaxes?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom.

the questions then are
Which sections of the press (think about the inventors background- and who his boss was and what newspapers were connected) and
Which policemen and When?
After Andersons white horse 'save the day' return or before?
the trouble for Anderson was that the black horse Jack the Ripper was way out of the stable door and had raced away with a gallop.
Best wishes

Phil

[robhouse]

Are you suggesting that Aaron Kosminski did not have a Jewish appearance? I would find that surprising.

Why would you find that surprising?

[Phil Carter]

Why would you find that surprising?

Hello Rob,

Actually, Kosminski in any form didnt enter my mind. I am saying that Stride's killer may have been thought, through Anderson's info gatherers, to be a Polish Jew.
Not named in his book and (we are told) dead in an asylum.
(No eventual chance of being libelled IFsaid Polish Jew was alive)

All bases nicely covered.

Best wishes

Phil

[Garry Wroe]

… part of the trouble with his testimony, for my part, is that nobody else saw what he saw, nobody else even saw him at the scene ...

That makes Schwartz neither unique nor suspicious, Dave. There was no corroboration for Mrs Long’s story, nor for Sarah Lewis’s Wideawake man or Mary Cox’s Blotchy. The one witness who did see anything of note whilst in the company of others was Lawende, and his description of Eddowes’ Church Passage companion was largely contradicted by Levy.

It’s the nature of the beast, I’m afraid. These crimes were committed at times when the streets were largely deserted of human traffic, making meaningful sightings few and far between. This is not to say that witness statements should be accepted uncritically. Far from it. Violenia, Packer and Hutchinson each serves as a reminder of the pitfalls of blind faith in this context. But if we are to cast aspersions against those who are no longer around to defend their reputations, we should at least be doing so from a foundation of solid evidence.

… and additionally of course there are the largely unanswered questions about who he actually was, where was he moving from, and what happened to him post 1888...if some of the gaps could be filled, maybe he'd be better trusted, and less regarded as having a theatrical bent ...

It is a historical reality, Dave, that many of the Jews who settled in London during the period under scrutiny attempted to acquire social acceptance by anglicizing their names. Others moved to different parts of the country or indeed other countries. This was an era of social turmoil and inadequate record keeping. The London police had yet to adopt fingerprinting, and the Home Secretary appeared to believe that an image of the killer might be obtainable via the photographing of victims’ retinae. It was an altogether different world from the one we inhabit. Thus I see nothing suspicious in the mystery surrounding Schwartz’s post-1888 movements. In my experience the solutions to the vast majority of such issues turn out to be simple and eminently mundane – which is why conspiracy theories almost without exception prove to be baseless.

[GregBaron]

Let's get our story straight...

which is why conspiracy theories almost without exception prove to be baseless.

This may be the smartest statement I've ever read on Casebook.

Many of us tend to make a chess match out of a Clue game...

I still believe in the simplest explanation thing....I won't mention any razors or anything to avoid an epistemological debate with Lynn...

It's a pretty impressive conspiracy if the Jews gathered for 15 minutes and came up with Pipeman, Lipski and a very counter-intuitive struggle - not to mention great specifics about the path taken by Schwarz.....I guess I'll soon be believing the CIA blew up the twin towers..........



Greg

[Garry Wroe]

Come on, Greg. Everyone knows that the CIA had no involvement in the destruction of the Twin Towers. They were way too busy at the time covering up their part in alien abductions.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob. I suppose I just picture Kozminski as looking like his fellow Jewish countrymen, which I imagine to be the very epitome of what makes the Jewish look. More to the point, I'm curious why Phil Carter assumes that BS Man was Jewish, but didn't look Jewish. Ironically (or perhaps not so), the only Jews of the area who come to mind who didn't like religious Jews and who would probably adapt (if not invent) anti-Semitic epithets, are the very Jews who lived and played in the house BS Man stood in front of, and only a street over from Lipski himself. Of course, there's also the grossly ignored Kosminski's of 74 Berner Street who, for some reason, everyone assumes have absolutely no connection to Aaron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott