Exonerating Michael Kidney - A Fresh Look at Old Myths

[Lechmere]

Tom
I agreed with pretty much all your article apart from the speculation about Le Grand being involved in the Kidney cab ride. You did use the word ‘possession’ though!

“It goes without saying that a hansom cab is beyond the means and wants of a broke, drunken waterside laborer. However, one was certainly in the possession of Charles Le Grand and his colleague, J.H. Batchelor.”

When one gets a cab, you hire it for a journey and it then tends to go off to find another fare. I very much doubt Le Grand would have kept one handy on retainer.
Do we know where Kidney picked up his cab from?

The bit that really doesn’t work isn’t so much that Le Grand provided the cab ride, more that the purpose of the ride was to take Kidney to the police station in order to get a policeman to interrogate Le Grand.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'd be interested to know in which of his books Bob Hinton “stood out“ in offering the most talk and thought pertaining to the murder of Stride, Schwartz, “and other areas usually brushed over by authors“. Is that in From Hell (which I've only partly perused, online)?

I believe the title was Big Sexy Mess of a Man, the Bob Hinton Autobiography.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Le Grand is documented to have picked up Packer in a hired cab with Batchelor

Yes but that doesn't make Le Grand responsible for every cab ride in the East End.

No, but if two Berner Street witnesses were taken to the police in a cab, then it does make Le Grand responsible for AT LEAST 50% of them, and since Le Grand was hanging around the mortuary talking to the witnesses, one of whom was Kidney, then it argues pretty well that Le Grand was the likely guy to have taken him to the station. The other alternatives are, as you suggested, that a low class drunkard of not much means hailed a hansom, or there was someone else besides Le Grand whisking away witnesses to the police. If you don't want it to have been Le Grand, that's fine. My essay makes a pretty good argument for it having been him, and anything I have to say on this point is in there for you to agree or disagree with.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Le Grand is documented to have picked up Packer in a hired cab with Batchelor

Yes but that doesn't make Le Grand responsible for every cab ride in the East End.

[mariab]

about Le Grand as a murder suspect. He figures in my essay only because I believe the evidence points to him as the man who took Kidney to the police.

I know. My joke about a Danish having possibly killed a Swede does not completely obfuscate the possibility that Le Grand might have known Stride on the street, nevertheless.

Like the rest of us, newbies (and oldies) came from having read the books, and as I exposed in my article, they are ALL wrong in their treatments of the Stride case. That's not to be critical, it's just a fact.

I'd be interested to know in which of his books Bob Hinton “stood out“ in offering the most talk and thought pertaining to the murder of Stride, Schwartz, “and other areas usually brushed over by authors“. Is that in From Hell (which I've only partly perused, online)?

[Tom_Wescott]

Very astute observation. For what it's worth, Swedish is not so much a guttural language as Danish is. Is there anybody else out there thinking, like me, that it's kind of interesting if a Dane pimp were the one who killed a Swedish prostitute?

Neither my essay nor this thread is about Le Grand as a murder suspect. He figures in my essay only because I believe the evidence points to him as the man who took Kidney to the police.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom,
I think the weakest aspect is your conclusion that Le Grand must have delivered Kidney to Leman Street in a cab. As if Le Grand had a monopoly on hansom cabs? We also have no way of knowing whether or not Kidney could have afforded a short cab ride. I would suggest the cost of such a ride would not have been exorbitant.
Also Le Grand would not have ‘possessed’ a cab – he would have hailed one when necessary.

Did I say that Le Grand owned one or was in possession? I haven’t read this article in a long time. I can say that he was out in one every Sunday and used then for his work when necessary, as well as having hailed them. He did not own a cab and horse, though, but would rent them. As for Kidney, he was drunk and pissed and I don’t think he could have afforded a cab, nor would he have spent his beer money on one if he could. I based my conclusion that Le Grand took him to the police because I can place both men at the same place at the same time (viewing of the body) on that very day and Le Grand is the only person I’m aware of who was picking up people close to the Stride murder and ushering them to the police in a hansom cab to cause trouble. I feel I reached a pretty fair conclusion based on the evidence. However, it clearly is not a central point of my thesis, just another new nugget for people to consider.

You also claim that Kidney went to the police station, in a cab supplied by Le Grand, to ask the police to provide him with a strange (unknown) detective in order to cross examine Le Grand. Because Le Grand didn’t want to divulge certain information to Kidney.
That doesn’t quite work.

Is this what I said or just one possibility I offered? I think I was clear at that point that I was speculating, which unfortunately, is sometimes necessary.

Having said that the notion that Stride wasn’t a Ripper victim is very weak – a middle aged prostitute with a drink problem murdered and left in the open late at night with a cut throat. Not mutilated but there’s an obvious reason for this (being disturbed) and a second murder the same night with a time frame that exactly fits.
It is stretching credibility to think there were two murderers about that night – and on no other.

On this you and I obviously agree. Thanks for your thoughts, and if you have ideas on what or who was behind Kidney’s theory that I didn’t think of, I’d be very grateful if you shared them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

(...)impediment she had, which more than likely was really her Swedish accent coming through. A big bottom lip wouldn’t lead to a speech impediment, of course, and this might be why some people said she didn’t speak with a Swedish accent (because they understood her to have a speech impediment, so took no notice of the irregularity of her speech)

Very astute observation. For what it's worth, Swedish is not so much a guttural language as Danish is. Is there anybody else out there thinking, like me, that it's kind of interesting if a Dane pimp were the one who killed a Swedish prostitute?

To Lechmere:
Le Grand is documented to have picked up Packer in a hired cab with Batchelor.

[Tom_Wescott]

I've read many of Tom's articles and I think this is one of his best.

This has been discussed before, but it has been awhile, so perhaps some of the members who think Kidney may have been Stride's killer would like to comment upon Tom's take on this.

That is greatly appreciated, Hunter. That really was the purpose for my writing it. Like the rest of us, newbies (and oldies) came from having read the books, and as I exposed in my article, they are ALL wrong in their treatments of the Stride case. That's not to be critical, it's just a fact. The suggestion that Kidney killed Stride has always been the predominant factor in the argument that she was not a Ripper victim. As was recently pointed out, 36% o people on a Casebook poll feel that Stride was not a Ripper victim. This is 99% due to the books on the case blaming Kidney, or just getting their facts wrong in general. My hope with this essay now being on the Casebook is that when this kind of discussion arises, they can be pointed here to read it and be up to speed. Or at least have ALL the facts at their command to make an educated decision.

By 'exonerating' Michael Kidney, we do not at all prove that Jack the Ripper killed her, but the second most popular reason for discounting her as a Ripper victim is now good and truly quashed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Tom,
I think the weakest aspect is your conclusion that Le Grand must have delivered Kidney to Leman Street in a cab. As if Le Grand had a monopoly on hansom cabs? We also have no way of knowing whether or not Kidney could have afforded a short cab ride. I would suggest the cost of such a ride would not have been exorbitant.
Also Le Grand would not have ‘possessed’ a cab – he would have hailed one when necessary.

You also claim that Kidney went to the police station, in a cab supplied by Le Grand, to ask the police to provide him with a strange (unknown) detective in order to cross examine Le Grand. Because Le Grand didn’t want to divulge certain information to Kidney.
That doesn’t quite work.

Having said that the notion that Stride wasn’t a Ripper victim is very weak – a middle aged prostitute with a drink problem murdered and left in the open late at night with a cut throat. Not mutilated but there’s an obvious reason for this (being disturbed) and a second murder the same night with a time frame that exactly fits.
It is stretching credibility to think there were two murderers about that night – and on no other.

[Tom_Wescott]

Don,

Did you happen to notice the very first post in this thread, written by myself, which states the essay was published in Casebook Examiner? And yes, it SHOULD have that sourced in the Dissertations section, otherwise any writer wanting to reference this could only reference the Casebook website.

Hi Tom -I just read your article/dissertation and thought it one of the best written, and best supported, bits of writing that I've had the pleasure to read in Ripper Land.

Wow, thanks for that. What a compliment.

you claim that that one example of Liz lying, was her claim to having a deformed palate. Garry Wroe cleaned up the photo of Liz dead in the morgue, and she clearly had a deformed lip. This coralated with Neal Sheldon's statement that Liz was known as 'Old Mother Gum' because she had a deformed lip. Liz was clearly born with this deformity (and it couldn't have been caused by anyone putting their foot in her mouth as she escaped from The Princess Alice), but there was clearly 'some' truth in her assertion.....ok a 'palate' isn't a 'lip' -but she did have a deformed mouth.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say Liz’s bottom lip was deformed. Keep in mind she’s lying on her back with her head propped forward. I would say she had a prominent bottom lip, which led not only to the name ‘Old Mother Gum’ but also ‘Hippy Lip Annie’, hippy meaning ‘to stick out’. But she used the ‘bad palate’ lie to excuse a perceived speech impediment she had, which more than likely was really her Swedish accent coming through. A big bottom lip wouldn’t lead to a speech impediment, of course, and this might be why some people said she didn’t speak with a Swedish accent (because they understood her to have a speech impediment, so took no notice of the irregularity of her speech), while others she openly told she was Swedish.

I have always thought that that the reason that Liz and Kate were targetted
was that they were soliciting for clients attending Jewish Clubs, the night of their deaths. The Statement about 'at work among the Jews ' (which I take as prostituting herself for jewish clients), and the mention of Fashion Street by both Liz and Kate...where there was a Synagogue....certainly gives food for thought.

I wouldn’t doubt that Liz entertained Jewish clients…that might very well be the reason she was hanging out at the Berner Street club. However, when an East End unfortunate said she ‘worked among the Jews’, it was a way of explaining their extra money. So when Liz said this, she was avoiding the admission that she was a prostitute. Having said that, Liz did in fact do cleaning for money and did some on the morning of her murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Supe]

All,

Abject apologies. I don't know what I was thinking: Liz charred in Gothenburg not Stockholm before she came to England.

Don.

[mariab]

stupor mundi

It's funny, my paper at the conference here is about (among else) a Risorgimental opera by Verdi about the first (not the fifth) Crusade (but in reality about the re-unification of Italy).
Lynn Cates also understands Yiddish. (And can write articles in Latin.)

[Supe]

Maria,

Her understanding Yiddish would automatically occur through her Swedish anyway. Even I understand (spoken) Yiddish and can read Danish from my German

You are a stupor mundi. In any case, I was only repeating the perceived wisdom.

Don.

[Rubyretro]

"at work among the Jews" might mean either 'housework' or 'prostitution'

Believe what you like, which you will anyway.

Don.

As will you. There is no way of prooving our respective points of view.