Exonerating Michael Kidney - A Fresh Look at Old Myths

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm rather surprised no one has shown up here to tell me that Michael Kidney did, in fact, kill Liz Stride. I noticed Phil H state on another thread that he thinks that's the likely scenario. Would love to get the feedback of someone such as Phil to my article. I think I'll send him a PM.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Maria
How much was a cab fare from the area around Devonshire Street to Leman Street?

Say he was getting drunk in the George, where Rose Mylett was seen before she was found dead in December 1888.
Or even the Bricklayers on Settles Street, where Stride herself went drinking on the night she was killed.
Or perhaps the Hungerford Arms which was very close to Devonshire Street.
Either way the maximum distance (from the George) to Leman Street Police Station is 0.9 of a mile. From the Hungerford it is only 0.7 miles.
Some reports insist Kidney lived in Dorset Street – in which case the distance from say the Queens (where Stride had also been on th day of her death) to Leman Street would be just 0.5 of a mile.

Either way I believe the maximum fare would be one shilling. Kidney must have spent considerably more than that getting drunk.

It is one of those things that if it was so outlandish that Kidney had got a cab all on his lonesome, then it would surely have been explained at the time. But it wasn’t which suggests to me that a mere labourer could dream of hiring a cab.

And motive?
I don’t think it would be beyond a couple of dodgy private detectives to concoct evidence, that only they had supposedly discovered, in order to impress their employers so that they would be kept in retainer.

Lastly I have to say that I have never been worried about the consequences of someone buying me a drink! Or do you know something sinister about Tom Wescott? Are you saying he’s a Denis Nilson type? Should I ask for a postal order instead?

[curious4]

I’d be careful letting it get around that you fantasize about me buying you a drink at a pub. If Phil Carter starts PMing you for a pic, don’t blame me.



Hi curious. Let’s not forget that the coroner ruled out any injuries to her face. Mother Gumm and Hippy Lip Annie would indeed be references to her mouth. Women with large bottom lips and retracted chins also display a lot of gum when they smile.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom.

Damn, knew I should have rechecked the autopsy report!

Cheers,
C4

[curious]

Lechmere, a labourer like Michael Kidney wouldn't even dream of hiring a ransom cab.

Maria,
I don't believe you can be positive of that.

curious

[curious4]

Maria -with all your self proclaimed brilliance, I'm astonished that you don't know what a 'Hare lip' is. Go back to the Internet and look (clue: the upper lip is cleft and resembles a hare's lip).

There is a discussion on the photography thread (Rob Clack's Uber Thread ?)
where Garry has cleaned up Liz Stride's photo and it is clear that she had a 'wierd' (at least) or deformed lip ( but not a 'Hare Lip' by any imagination). The visual is supported by Neil Sheldon's description of her.

Curious : I think 'Long Liz' was a play on her surname, 'Stride'.

Oh yes, Ruby, could well be! Anything to back that up? With the good old cockney sense of humour sounds a good bet though!

Cheers,
C4

[curious4]

I have had a picture in my mind of Tom Wescott holding an impromptu wake in a pub over his theory that Le Grand sent Kidney to Leman Street, getting very heated at the failure to find right dates and Tom finally pouring me a big drink, perhaps paid for by a whip-round at the pub. Pure fantasy, of course.

Well it would be, wouldn´t it? Fantasy, I mean.

Cheers,
C4

[mariab]

I’d be careful letting it get around that you fantasize about me buying you a drink at a pub.

Problem with letting people buy you drinks, Lechmere, is that there might be expectations later on, if you're catching my drift. Any girl with the slightest experience will tell you that if you chose this (super easily available) cheap avenue of getting smashed, you'd better be equipped to be able to physically restrain the drink buyer afterwards (which can be done, esp. since they tend to be smashed too).
(I still recall this Aussie guy couple years ago screaming at me “You led me on!“ and I'm like “Here's your beer back, buddy, I've only drunk half of the bottle so far.“)

Packer goes to morgue and a long distance to Scotland Yard in a cab in the daytime on 4th October with two private detectives. The overt and not very hazy motive was to show to the WVC that the private detectives were efficiently doing their job.

Right on about the motive. On second thoughs, no wait, there was also a certain amount of planted evidence involved, as well as 2 planted newspaper stories, which amounts to obstruction of justice. For the record: Packer was a fake witness. In case you're not aware of this part of the story, Lechmere, this is incidentally discussed in an Examiner 2 article by the same author. This article contains more about the 2 detectives in question.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Kidney met any private detectives or that anyone paid for his very short cab ride to Leman Street.

Lechmere, a labourer like Michael Kidney wouldn't even dream of hiring a ransom cab.
That being said, I need to re-read that part of Exonerating to see where Tom allegedly left evidence out pertaining to Kidney at the police precinct.

Women with large bottom lips and retracted chins also display a lot of gum when they smile.

Tried reenacting this by pursing my bottom lip and punching my chin in, but it didn't work out. Ended up making silly faces in front of the mirror.

[Tom_Wescott]

I have had a picture in my mind of Tom Wescott holding an impromptu wake in a pub over his theory that Le Grand sent Kidney to Leman Street, getting very heated at the failure to find right dates and Tom finally pouring me a big drink, perhaps paid for by a whip-round at the pub. Pure fantasy, of course.

I’d be careful letting it get around that you fantasize about me buying you a drink at a pub. If Phil Carter starts PMing you for a pic, don’t blame me.

Further to this, Lippy I think meant cheeky, someone who always had an answer and nothing to do with her mouth - her so-called injury was said to be to the palate, inside the mouth, not to her lip. Looking at the photograph, she seems to have a "thick lip" after a blow to the mouth rather than a deformity.

Hi curious. Let’s not forget that the coroner ruled out any injuries to her face. Mother Gumm and Hippy Lip Annie would indeed be references to her mouth. Women with large bottom lips and retracted chins also display a lot of gum when they smile.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

[QUOTE=Lechmere;191594]Right Maria, as everyone else is picking on you I will jump back in...[

I can't see how correcting her is picking on her, should we just let misinformation pass us by?

Tj

[Lechmere]

Right Maria, as everyone else is picking on you I will jump back in...
"The “theory“ in question is the most logical probability – unless there were 2 pairs of detectives running around the exact same neighborhood in the exact same week in a hansom cab, driving witnesses from the exact same case to the exact same police precinct with similar hazy motives."

Kidney goes to morgue and then Leman Street police station alone in a cab for a short distance at night time after getting roaring drunk on 1st October. The overt and not very hazy motive being that he had his own theory as to how the case could be solved.

Packer goes to morgue and a long distance to Scotland Yard in a cab in the daytime on 4th October with two private detectives. The overt and not very hazy motive was to show to the WVC that the private detectives were efficiently doing their job.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Kidney met any private detectives or that anyone paid for his very short cab ride to Leman Street.
You can theorise on it by all means but it is not a logical probability.

[tji]

I've looked it up on the internet and it's sometimes related to palate asymmetry. And the pics (for cleft lip) are totally eewww.[/QUOTE]

This sentence is just wrong on so many levels, children/people with cleft lip don't ask for the reaction they get, or the bullying, it is a medical condition they are born with that affects them significantly and I would think anyone with an ounce of sense would realise this and not comment so insensitively.


Also a hare lip does not denote a thick bottom lip compared to a thinner top one, a hare lip is just another term for a cleft lip.

Maybe if you read what you wrote before sending you would not have people pointing out your mistakes all the time.

Tracy

[Rubyretro]

Maria -with all your self proclaimed brilliance, I'm astonished that you don't know what a 'Hare lip' is. Go back to the Internet and look (clue: the upper lip is cleft and resembles a hare's lip).

There is a discussion on the photography thread (Rob Clack's Uber Thread ?)
where Garry has cleaned up Liz Stride's photo and it is clear that she had a 'wierd' (at least) or deformed lip ( but not a 'Hare Lip' by any imagination). The visual is supported by Neil Sheldon's description of her.

Curious : I think 'Long Liz' was a play on her surname, 'Stride'.

[mariab]

Quote mariab:
I sorta recall asking you about not having put a footnote for this last July, when I first read that article as a complete newbie.

I sorta don't recall that, and any quotes in my article are in fact sourced.

It's sorta just one quote, the one about the 2 detectives spiriting away Packer, and I've just realized it's sorta in the Examiner 2 article. So I guess I should sorta apologize.

I have had a picture in my mind of Michael Kidney and friends holding an impromptu wake in a nearby pub

I have had a picture in my mind of Tom Wescott holding an impromptu wake in a pub over his theory that Le Grand sent Kidney to Leman Street

You guys make me feel like going to a pub right now, and there are no pubs in Berlin. (Actually, there's an Irish pub not too far from where I am.)
The “theory“ in question is the most logical probability – unless there were 2 pairs of detectives running around the exact same neighborhood in the exact same week in a hansom cab, driving witnesses from the exact same case to the exact same police precinct with similar hazy motives.

I have wondered about Long Liz - the Swedish for liar being "lögnare", "lögn" being pronounced something like "lergn", and whether the nickname came from her Swedish aquaintances (Lögn - Long) referring to her as a liar (which, of course, she was).

Very interesting, Curious. (And by the by, "lögn" in Swedish, “lügen“ in German, so you see how close a game it is.) There's the Ollson book about Stride's early years in Sweden, but I don't think it discusses her lying. Problem is, the nickname “Long Liz“ generated in London, among the British.

Looking at the photograph, she seems to have a "thick lip" after a blow to the mouth rather than a deformity.

There are absolutely no visible bruises from blows on the face for Stride (as there are for Nichols). Her lower lip is unusually thick (esp. compared to her very thin upper lip) and asymmetrical. What they call “harelip“. I've looked it up on the internet and it's sometimes related to palate asymmetry. And the pics (for cleft lip) are totally eewww.

[Lechmere]

I have had a picture in my mind of Tom Wescott holding an impromptu wake in a pub over his theory that Le Grand sent Kidney to Leman Street, getting very heated at the failure to find right dates and Tom finally pouring me a big drink, perhaps paid for by a whip-round at the pub. Pure fantasy, of course.

[curious4]

Michael Kidney/Long Liz, Lippy Liz

Hello again,

I have had a picture in my mind of Michael Kidney and friends holding an impromptu wake in a nearby pub, everyone getting very heated at the police failure to find the murderer and Kidney finally being poured into a cab, perhaps paid for by a whip-round at the pub, in order to speak his mind and voice his discontent. Pure fantasy, of course.

I have wondered about Long Liz - the Swedish for liar being "lögnare", "lögn" being pronounced something like "lergn", and whether the nickname came from her Swedish aquaintances (Lögn - Long) referring to her as a liar (which, of course, she was).

Further to this, Lippy I think meant cheeky, someone who always had an answer and nothing to do with her mouth - her so-called injury was said to be to the palate, inside the mouth, not to her lip. Looking at the photograph, she seems to have a "thick lip" after a blow to the mouth rather than a deformity.

Regards,
C4