Exonerating Michael Kidney - A Fresh Look at Old Myths

[Tom_Wescott]

So, you believe LeGrand inserted himself into the investigation, not once but at least twice?

Are you perhaps seeing him as the murderer?

Well, and he was also in front of the whole Batty Street Lodger thing, so maybe three times. But I don’t really count the Kidney thing as separate from the Packer thing. It was two strokes of the same drum roll. As for murderer, I would prefer not to discuss suspects on this thread. In fact, it’s unfortunate that Le Grand - who was such a small part of my essay – is all anyone wants to talk about here. But you and Lechmere have both brought up good points, and clearly I should have written that section of the essay more carefully as to be clearer.

But that is pure speculation – new speculation perhaps but speculation none the less. I personally doubt that all roads lead back to Le Grand.

In Berner Street, it sure seems most of them do. I’m not sure why you find it difficult to believe that Le Grand took Kidney to the police when you already know that on that same day Le Grand was in that very neighborhood doing the same with Packer, and that Le Grand and Kidney are documented as having spent part of the day in the SAME ROOM, that being the mortuary. Who else would be weird enough to do this? Your statement suggests some sort of invention on my part, but based solely on Le Grand’s actions, his access to a cab, and the known movements that day of both Le Grand and Kidney, most researchers wouldn’t have a difficult time putting 3 and 3 together as I have done.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Quote Tom Wescott:
“To my mind, the importance of the discovery was that Le Grand was the one who took Kidney to the police station.”

But that is pure speculation – new speculation perhaps but speculation none the less. I personally doubt that all roads lead back to Le Grand.

I apologize for butting in, but couldn't resist.
Lechmere, it's documented that 2 “private detectives“ named Charles Le Grand and James Bachelor took away Matthew Packer as a “witness“ in a hansom cab. Michael Kidney was taken by an unnamed “private detective“ in another hansom cab. I've seen “speculation“ of much more extensive creativity in other cases, both in Ripperology and elsewhere. Noone's saying that “all roads lead to Le Grand“, but he seems to have been pretty involved on Berner Street, if you'd excuse the pun.

[Lechmere]

Tom
“To my mind, the importance of the discovery was that Le Grand was the one who took Kidney to the police station.”
But that is pure speculation – new speculation perhaps but speculation none the less. I personally doubt that all roads lead back to Le Grand.

[curious]

And no, I don't believe at all that he was operating on behalf of the vigilance committee here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So, you believe LeGrand inserted himself into the investigation, not once but at least twice?

Are you perhaps seeing him as the murderer?

curious

[Tom_Wescott]

From the way I read your dissertation, you believe that Kidney wanted the police to investigate LeGrand. That Kidney went off on his own, perhaps, and did not parrot the story LeGrand delivered him to deliver to the police. If he was drunken and grief stricken, would Kidney have had the presence of mind to arrive at that conclusion?

I'm not sure of that. It would seem likely to me that LeGrand talked to Kidney about his personal theory, then delivered Kidney to the station in order for Kidney to insist the police investigate someone LeGrand wanted investigated.

I do wonder about the depth of LeGrand's intrusion, even keeping Packer from speaking to officer White. How did he get by with that?

This is the one area in the essay that I see some clarification might be in order on your part.

Hi Curious, thanks for the thoughts. I'm afraid that without more information, I won't be able to clarify the situation more. All I can conclude is that Le Grand took Kidney to the police, and Kidney arrived with his head full of a nonsensical theory, probably fed to him by Le Grand. It's possible that Kidney wanted Le Grand interrogated to learn more about his theory, and it's equally (maybe more) possible that Kidney was anxious to have Le Grand's theory followed up directly, though you'll notice that Kidney would not or could not talk more in depth about his theory or name his source.

To my mind, the importance of the discovery was that Le Grand was the one who took Kidney to the police station. My speculation as to Kidney's theory was just that, speculation, and I imagine it will remain that way. Perhaps if I hadn't bothered to speculate on this part at all, no one would have been disappointed by the lack of conclusion. But no, I'm certain Le Grand did not want himself investigated. He was wanted by the police and would have gone to prison. And no, I don't believe at all that he was operating on behalf of the vigilance committee here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Carol]

I basically understand Swedish through my German too,Curious, and Yiddish is definitely easier than Swedish.

I wasn't going to say anything but I just can't keep quiet any more. I agree that it is more than possible to understand the spoken Yiddish to a certain extent if one is proficient in German but actually impossible even if one is proficient in Swedish. Curious4 is completely right in what she says. I actually don't believe it is possible that you 'basically understand Swedish through your German', Maria, as it is completely different from German apart from some 'loaned' words. I know what you mean, as I can understand some written German sometimes because certain words are similar, but I wouldn't say that I 'basically understand' German. The Scandinavian languages are completely different to German. I can also tell you that the Swedes, while 'getting by' with understanding the spoken Norwegian have the greatest difficulty in understanding the spoken Danish. This is true. The Norwegian and Danes can understand the spoken Swedish. Norwegian and Danish can be understood if 'read' by Swedes (and myself). Whenever the Swedish television airs a Danish or Norwegian programme there are always Swedish sub-titles.

I wouldn't be surprised if Elisabeth Stride's four languages were: Swedish, English, Norwegian and Danish. Swedish because she was born here. English because she had lived in England for some years. Norwegian because the spoken language is fairly well understood in Sweden and during her life-time Sweden and Norway were in a 'union' (until 1905) and in Göteborg (Gothenburg) there were many Norwegians living and working. Danish because even I, a foreigner, can say I understand the written Danish.

I actually think Elisabeth Stride was a beautiful woman. If the poor thing looked as she did when dead then I can only imagine just how much more attractive she looked when alive and animated. She had one of the Swedish 'looks' in my opinion. Yes, I know she had dark hair but many Swedes have medium brown to dark hair.

Carol

[curious]

cab rides and green velvet

I want to thank Lechmere for his thoughts. Has anyone else read the essay and found something they disagreed with or didn't understand?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Good Morning, Tom,
Or so it is in my part of the world.

In answer to your question, yes, I have just completed your essay and found it well-written, intriguing and thought-provoking. Also compelling, but not completely convincing to me (no one else has managed to completely convince me, either).

Lechmere pointed out the one weakness that bothered me most. Not the cab ride being courtesy of LeGrand, but that LeGrand would have delivered Kidney to the police to encourage the authorities to investigate LeGrand. Or so your essay appears to say. In a post in this thread, you clear that up and suggest that Kidney went off on his own, wanting LeGrand questioned because of his knowledge of the murder which LeGrand did not share completely with Kidney.

Since LeGrand apparently inserted himself into the Stride investigation by delivering Packer, now also delivered Kidney, I wonder what LeGrand's angle was. Was it because LeGrand was "employed as a ‘private detective’ with the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee" as you state. So, LeGrand's involvement was because of his employment.

From the way I read your dissertation, you believe that Kidney wanted the police to investigate LeGrand. That Kidney went off on his own, perhaps, and did not parrot the story LeGrand delivered him to deliver to the police. If he was drunken and grief stricken, would Kidney have had the presence of mind to arrive at that conclusion?

I'm not sure of that. It would seem likely to me that LeGrand talked to Kidney about his personal theory, then delivered Kidney to the station in order for Kidney to insist the police investigate someone LeGrand wanted investigated.

I do wonder about the depth of LeGrand's intrusion, even keeping Packer from speaking to officer White. How did he get by with that?

This is the one area in the essay that I see some clarification might be in order on your part.

Also, Stride's green velvet has always interested me. You appear to believe that Stride went back into the home she shared with Kidney to retrieve a hymnal and the green velvet. What is the source of this, please?

What proof is there that Stride owned the green velvet prior to the day of her murder?

And I know there is another point I intended to mention, but it has gone out of my mind, and I have an appointment, so must leave for the time being.

Good job on the essay. Thanks,

curious

[Tom_Wescott]

I want to thank Lechmere for his thoughts. Has anyone else read the essay and found something they disagreed with or didn't understand?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I basically understand Swedish through my German too,Curious, and Yiddish is definitely easier than Swedish.

[curious4]

Yiddish

Dear Maria,

Yes, all nordic languages are related to some extent, but to say that a swede could understand yiddish simply because she had swedish as her mother tongue is an enormous leap. German, yes, the languages are similar, but swedish, no, sorry. Perhaps we could ask the opinion of another swedish speaker, I am willing to be proved wrong. Fisherman, are you out there?

Incidentally, I am impressed by your valiant attempts to decipher danish using german, but wouldn´t a danish dictionary be of more use?

All good wishes,
C4

[mariab]

Curious,
Swedish is VERY different from Yiddish, but all Nordic and Germanic languages are to some extent related, and it's very easy to understand the rest of them if one speaks another one of these languages. Otherwise, neither I nor Lynn Cates would have been able to understand (spoken) Yiddish up to a point through our familiarity with German.
This without wishing to steal away any of Stride's clearly existing linguistic capabilities (which is very typical for a Scandinavian). As she was evidently fluid with English and to an undocumented point with Yiddish. She definitely possessed some creative and sociable intelligence, visible also in her capacity to lie so well. :-)

[curious4]

Oops, didn't notice this. As I didn't (need to) read the “dissertation“.

Might I inquire which article you're referring to Don, if it doesn't highjack too much from the thread?


Her understanding Yiddish would automatically occur through her Swedish anyway. Even I understand (spoken) Yiddish and can read Danish from my German. (Reading Hebrew would have been another matter altogether, which I wish I could, for Lynn to spare his money with the AF project!)

Sorry Maria, was going to let this pass but swedish is NOTHING like yiddish! There may be some borrowed words from german, but just as many from french and english. Can´t you just accept that Liz, though unfortunate in every sense of the word, was a bright girl, bright enough to pick up another language besides english. After losing her job, giving birth to an illegitimate child and having no registered place to live (registration is and has always been paramount in Sweden), she would automatically have been branded a prostitute - a self-fulfilling prophesy, as nothing else would have been open to her. The fact that she took her mother´s legacy and moved to England for a fresh start shows her strong desire for a "normal" life - otherwise she would presumably have drunk up her legacy and carried on as she was. And for a while she seems to have succeeded.

C4

[curious4]

James Tully

Hello,

Coincidentally I have just finished re-reading James Tully´s book (as mentioned by Tom) and reappraised it as one of the best books I have read on JTR. I think I let myself be put off by the fact that I don´t agree with his theory (that James Kelly was JTR), and that it was one of the first books I read. Re-reading it I can appreciate the attention to detail and how well-researched it is, and also how well-written. I particularly enjoyed his suggestions as to the meaning of Matfelon - I must say I agree with him on that!

If you haven´t read this book, please do - it is definitely one of the best, even if you don´t agree with him.

Best regards
C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom
I agreed with pretty much all your article apart from the speculation about Le Grand being involved in the Kidney cab ride. You did use the word ‘possession’ though!

“It goes without saying that a hansom cab is beyond the means and wants of a broke, drunken waterside laborer. However, one was certainly in the possession of Charles Le Grand and his colleague, J.H. Batchelor.”

When one gets a cab, you hire it for a journey and it then tends to go off to find another fare. I very much doubt Le Grand would have kept one handy on retainer.
Do we know where Kidney picked up his cab from?

Actually, as I mentioned before, Le Grand and his lady would take a cab around every Sunday, and he was a private investigator with people in his employ who could drive him. This as opposed to having a man he’d never met before be within earshot of whatever he was up to. I’m guessing, but could be wrong, that on the day of the body viewing, when he clearly had intentions of getting witnesses alone, that he would have rented a cab. He could afford it. Nevertheless, by ‘possession’ I meant only that he had access to a cab that day, whether hailing or rental, though I had rental in mind.

The bit that really doesn’t work isn’t so much that Le Grand provided the cab ride, more that the purpose of the ride was to take Kidney to the police station in order to get a policeman to interrogate Le Grand.

Oh Lord, I don’t think that Le Grand intended for Kidney to go sick the cops on HIM. I think he fed Kidney the theory, but only so much, in hopes he would send the police off in that direction, and suggested that the ‘strange detective’ was Kidney’s idea to find out more about what Le Grand knew. But it could just as well have been to investigate the people Kidney were told might be the murders. This somewhat ties in with the report from the papers of a Vigilance Committee man holding a theory that numerous men were involved together in the murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I believe the title was Big Sexy Mess of a Man, the Bob Hinton Autobiography.

And I thought it was the one called They erased my message off the mud with their boot, and took away my stick. (Courtesy of Marc Ripper.)