Exonerating Michael Kidney - A Fresh Look at Old Myths

[curious]

cab rides and green velvet

I want to thank Lechmere for his thoughts. Has anyone else read the essay and found something they disagreed with or didn't understand?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Good Morning, Tom,
Or so it is in my part of the world.

In answer to your question, yes, I have just completed your essay and found it well-written, intriguing and thought-provoking. Also compelling, but not completely convincing to me (no one else has managed to completely convince me, either).

Lechmere pointed out the one weakness that bothered me most. Not the cab ride being courtesy of LeGrand, but that LeGrand would have delivered Kidney to the police to encourage the authorities to investigate LeGrand. Or so your essay appears to say. In a post in this thread, you clear that up and suggest that Kidney went off on his own, wanting LeGrand questioned because of his knowledge of the murder which LeGrand did not share completely with Kidney.

Since LeGrand apparently inserted himself into the Stride investigation by delivering Packer, now also delivered Kidney, I wonder what LeGrand's angle was. Was it because LeGrand was "employed as a ‘private detective’ with the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee" as you state. So, LeGrand's involvement was because of his employment.

From the way I read your dissertation, you believe that Kidney wanted the police to investigate LeGrand. That Kidney went off on his own, perhaps, and did not parrot the story LeGrand delivered him to deliver to the police. If he was drunken and grief stricken, would Kidney have had the presence of mind to arrive at that conclusion?

I'm not sure of that. It would seem likely to me that LeGrand talked to Kidney about his personal theory, then delivered Kidney to the station in order for Kidney to insist the police investigate someone LeGrand wanted investigated.

I do wonder about the depth of LeGrand's intrusion, even keeping Packer from speaking to officer White. How did he get by with that?

This is the one area in the essay that I see some clarification might be in order on your part.

Also, Stride's green velvet has always interested me. You appear to believe that Stride went back into the home she shared with Kidney to retrieve a hymnal and the green velvet. What is the source of this, please?

What proof is there that Stride owned the green velvet prior to the day of her murder?

And I know there is another point I intended to mention, but it has gone out of my mind, and I have an appointment, so must leave for the time being.

Good job on the essay. Thanks,

curious

[Carol]

I basically understand Swedish through my German too,Curious, and Yiddish is definitely easier than Swedish.

I wasn't going to say anything but I just can't keep quiet any more. I agree that it is more than possible to understand the spoken Yiddish to a certain extent if one is proficient in German but actually impossible even if one is proficient in Swedish. Curious4 is completely right in what she says. I actually don't believe it is possible that you 'basically understand Swedish through your German', Maria, as it is completely different from German apart from some 'loaned' words. I know what you mean, as I can understand some written German sometimes because certain words are similar, but I wouldn't say that I 'basically understand' German. The Scandinavian languages are completely different to German. I can also tell you that the Swedes, while 'getting by' with understanding the spoken Norwegian have the greatest difficulty in understanding the spoken Danish. This is true. The Norwegian and Danes can understand the spoken Swedish. Norwegian and Danish can be understood if 'read' by Swedes (and myself). Whenever the Swedish television airs a Danish or Norwegian programme there are always Swedish sub-titles.

I wouldn't be surprised if Elisabeth Stride's four languages were: Swedish, English, Norwegian and Danish. Swedish because she was born here. English because she had lived in England for some years. Norwegian because the spoken language is fairly well understood in Sweden and during her life-time Sweden and Norway were in a 'union' (until 1905) and in Göteborg (Gothenburg) there were many Norwegians living and working. Danish because even I, a foreigner, can say I understand the written Danish.

I actually think Elisabeth Stride was a beautiful woman. If the poor thing looked as she did when dead then I can only imagine just how much more attractive she looked when alive and animated. She had one of the Swedish 'looks' in my opinion. Yes, I know she had dark hair but many Swedes have medium brown to dark hair.

Carol

[Tom_Wescott]

From the way I read your dissertation, you believe that Kidney wanted the police to investigate LeGrand. That Kidney went off on his own, perhaps, and did not parrot the story LeGrand delivered him to deliver to the police. If he was drunken and grief stricken, would Kidney have had the presence of mind to arrive at that conclusion?

I'm not sure of that. It would seem likely to me that LeGrand talked to Kidney about his personal theory, then delivered Kidney to the station in order for Kidney to insist the police investigate someone LeGrand wanted investigated.

I do wonder about the depth of LeGrand's intrusion, even keeping Packer from speaking to officer White. How did he get by with that?

This is the one area in the essay that I see some clarification might be in order on your part.

Hi Curious, thanks for the thoughts. I'm afraid that without more information, I won't be able to clarify the situation more. All I can conclude is that Le Grand took Kidney to the police, and Kidney arrived with his head full of a nonsensical theory, probably fed to him by Le Grand. It's possible that Kidney wanted Le Grand interrogated to learn more about his theory, and it's equally (maybe more) possible that Kidney was anxious to have Le Grand's theory followed up directly, though you'll notice that Kidney would not or could not talk more in depth about his theory or name his source.

To my mind, the importance of the discovery was that Le Grand was the one who took Kidney to the police station. My speculation as to Kidney's theory was just that, speculation, and I imagine it will remain that way. Perhaps if I hadn't bothered to speculate on this part at all, no one would have been disappointed by the lack of conclusion. But no, I'm certain Le Grand did not want himself investigated. He was wanted by the police and would have gone to prison. And no, I don't believe at all that he was operating on behalf of the vigilance committee here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious]

And no, I don't believe at all that he was operating on behalf of the vigilance committee here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So, you believe LeGrand inserted himself into the investigation, not once but at least twice?

Are you perhaps seeing him as the murderer?

curious

[Lechmere]

Tom
“To my mind, the importance of the discovery was that Le Grand was the one who took Kidney to the police station.”
But that is pure speculation – new speculation perhaps but speculation none the less. I personally doubt that all roads lead back to Le Grand.

[mariab]

Quote Tom Wescott:
“To my mind, the importance of the discovery was that Le Grand was the one who took Kidney to the police station.”

But that is pure speculation – new speculation perhaps but speculation none the less. I personally doubt that all roads lead back to Le Grand.

I apologize for butting in, but couldn't resist.
Lechmere, it's documented that 2 “private detectives“ named Charles Le Grand and James Bachelor took away Matthew Packer as a “witness“ in a hansom cab. Michael Kidney was taken by an unnamed “private detective“ in another hansom cab. I've seen “speculation“ of much more extensive creativity in other cases, both in Ripperology and elsewhere. Noone's saying that “all roads lead to Le Grand“, but he seems to have been pretty involved on Berner Street, if you'd excuse the pun.

[Tom_Wescott]

So, you believe LeGrand inserted himself into the investigation, not once but at least twice?

Are you perhaps seeing him as the murderer?

Well, and he was also in front of the whole Batty Street Lodger thing, so maybe three times. But I don’t really count the Kidney thing as separate from the Packer thing. It was two strokes of the same drum roll. As for murderer, I would prefer not to discuss suspects on this thread. In fact, it’s unfortunate that Le Grand - who was such a small part of my essay – is all anyone wants to talk about here. But you and Lechmere have both brought up good points, and clearly I should have written that section of the essay more carefully as to be clearer.

But that is pure speculation – new speculation perhaps but speculation none the less. I personally doubt that all roads lead back to Le Grand.

In Berner Street, it sure seems most of them do. I’m not sure why you find it difficult to believe that Le Grand took Kidney to the police when you already know that on that same day Le Grand was in that very neighborhood doing the same with Packer, and that Le Grand and Kidney are documented as having spent part of the day in the SAME ROOM, that being the mortuary. Who else would be weird enough to do this? Your statement suggests some sort of invention on my part, but based solely on Le Grand’s actions, his access to a cab, and the known movements that day of both Le Grand and Kidney, most researchers wouldn’t have a difficult time putting 3 and 3 together as I have done.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious]

Well, and he was also in front of the whole Batty Street Lodger thing, so maybe three times.

most researchers wouldn’t have a difficult time putting 3 and 3 together as I have done.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

It works for me that LeGrand could have been behind Kidney showing up at the Police Station and inserted himself (LeGrand) into the investigation -- but to what end?

That is the question -- at least in my mind at this moment.

[mariab]

It works for me that LeGrand could have been behind Kidney showing up at the Police Station and inserted himself (LeGrand) into the investigation -- but to what end? That is the question -- at least in my mind at this moment.

Curious, the problem is that we don't know exactly what Le Grand might have said to Michael Kidney. Kidney (who was upset and quite a bit ridiculed during the inquest) refused to disclose the exact details of all this.
Most plausibly Le Grand would have wanted to shake the trail off himself if he was indeed involved in Stride's murder.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Curious,

I'm intentionally trying to avoid discussion of Le Grand as a suspect here, because the article I wrote isn't about who did kill Stride, but who didn't...in this case, Kidney. I apologize if I seem aloof.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Wow! I've just realized that there are 2 different Curiouses posting in this thread. Just like there were 2 hansom cab rides, 2 private detectives, 2 sisters having allegedly located Stride's flower and given it to Le Grand, and 2 victims on September 30. A coincidence – or a conspiracy? Hey, good that there are not 39 Curiouses in this thread.

[curious]

Wow! I've just realized that there are 2 different Curiouses posting in this thread. Just like there were 2 hansom cab rides, 2 private detectives, 2 sisters having allegedly located Stride's flower and given it to Le Grand, and 2 victims on September 30. A coincidence – or a conspiracy? Hey, good that there are not 39 Curiouses in this thread.

Double your pleasure, double your fun.

and Tom,

by choosing not to turn this into a suspect thread when I ask "to what end" you appear to have answered my question.

the original (I believe) curious

[mariab]

I wouldn’t go so far as to say Liz’s bottom lip was deformed. Keep in mind she’s lying on her back with her head propped forward. I would say she had a prominent bottom lip

I just noticed this. Stride's most clearly propped up (possibly standing against a wall?) in her postmortem pic, Tom, like in the known full body photograph of Eddowes. They wouldn't have been able to use a Victorian flash if they shot her lying down, as the flash powder would have spilled off to the ground. Rob Clack has pictures of a Victorian man in his casket shot propped up against a wall, casket and all.
All Ripper victims appear to have been shot propped up, apart from (obviously) MJK and possibly Nichols.
Fully agree about Stride's lip though.

[Tom_Wescott]

by choosing not to turn this into a suspect thread when I ask "to what end" you appear to have answered my question.

I will say this, you were perceptive in this thread and asked the 'right' questions.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Tom
I don’t find it difficult to accept the possibility that Le Grand supplied the cab that took Kidney to Leman Street. However it is hardly a matter which has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. It isn’t a question of 3 plus 3 equals six.
I think it is very misleading for things that are not facts being presented as facts.

In any case I think your time line is out.

Stride was killed in the early hours of the morning on 30th September.
At some time on 1st October Kidney saw Stride’s body at the mortuary at St George’s-in-the-East.
At night time on 1st October Kidney turned up drunk in a cab at Leman Street police station.
Stride’s inquest was held on 3rd October at the Vestry Hall, St George’s-in-the-East
Kidney said amongst other things:
“I have heard something said that leads me to believe, that had I been able to act the same as a detective I could have got a lot more information.”
This doesn’t sound like someone who had been spending time with two private detectives.

Also you state that:
“Le Grand and Batchelor would have had no trouble in locating Michael Kidney. All had been to the mortuary on the same day...”
and
“I’m not sure why you find it difficult to believe that Le Grand took Kidney to the police when you already know that on that same day Le Grand was in that very neighborhood doing the same with Packer, and that Le Grand and Kidney are documented as having spent part of the day in the SAME ROOM, that being the mortuary.”

Kidney was at the mortuary on 1st October and went to the police station that night after getting tanked up.

Le Grand and Batchelor took Packer to the City Mortuary on 3rd October to see the body of Eddowes, who he couldn’t identify (while Kidney was at the inquest).
On the afternoon of 4th October Le Grand and Batchelor took Packer to the mortuary at St George’s-in-the-East to see Stride’s body.
After 4pm on 4th October Le Grand and Batchelor took Packer to Scotland Yard in a cab.

So Le Grand was not at the St George’s Mortuary in the same day as Kidney. He went there three days later.

The only connection between Kidney and Le Grand that you actually provide is based on your interpretation of an Echo report concerning crowds in Berner Street on 1st October. You speculate that Le Grand and Batchelor were haranguing these crowds. But that is your speculation and it is a bit flimsy to use that to support the claim that these two arranged for Kidney to be conveyed to Leman Street later that night.
St Georges’ Mortuary isn’t that close to Berner Street anyway.

I know Le Grand was a bit of an incompetent crim but why would he send Kidney to Leman Street unless he was sure Kidney would provide the right story? All Kidney seems to have done is blather on about his own theory for which he required an unknown police detective. This again undermines the notion that Kidney was involved with Le Grand.

The logical answer is that if Le Grand was involved then he somehow found Kidney and provided him with a cab just to be ‘helpful’ in his capacity as a detective working for the WVS

Maria
“Michael Kidney was taken by an unnamed “private detective“ in another hansom cab.”
Could you provide the source for this? It may be that I have missed it.

If I have made any mistakes with dates etc. then please accept my apologies.

I think the reason this aspect is under discussion is because the rest of the dissertation is fairly unarguable, but I think Le Grand being shoehorned into the Kidney story detracts from it a bit.